The Station Fire Thread

[Rick Kent]

I have so many questions about what has probably burned. I don't think the public has a clue how big this fire is. We hear statistics and numbers all the time but it doesn't mean anything. It was only after I saw the burn perimeter maps this morning that I had a clue. I could not have comprehended that it could burn all the way over to Gleason and then on to Pacifico in so little time.

[Rick Kent]

On a positive note I guess it shouldn't be too hard to get to Falls of the Fox anymore. That was half the adventure though.

[Kit Fox]

I've been working on a list on military wreck sites that disappeared in the formerly dense undergrowth of ANF.

04/06/43 BT-13A flown by instructor William T. Nunn from Cal Aero School at Ontario AAF crashed on north slope of Mt. Lukens, above La Crescenta, killing him instantly.

09/20/44 P38 Hits Just Below Ridgeline Near Mount Wilson

11/16/44 C47 #6143 Crashed In Wildcat Gulch Near Mount Wilson

12/22/44 B24 from Muroc crashed near Mount Gleason after an explosion in air

12/24/44 BT13 crashed while searching for B24 near Mount Gleason in the Angeles Forest


07/25/49 Aronca Champion #N-84849 crashed near Iron Mountain five miles south of Ravena.

02/15/51 Ryan Airplane # 4576K Crashed In Chimney Canyon Southwest Of Mount Gleason

07/02/52 USAF C47 #8723 Enroute From El Paso, TX To Van Nuys Crashed On Mount Wilson

09/04/56 Two F86's #49-1336N&48-313N From Ontario ANG Base Collide And Crash Above Mount Pacifico.


07/23/60 B25 Crashes While On Firefighting Mission in Mill Canyon

[mattmaxon]

I've been working on a list on military wreck sites that disappeared in the formerly dense undergrowth of ANF.

04/06/43 BT-13A flown by instructor William T. Nunn from Cal Aero School at Ontario AAF crashed on north slope of Mt. Lukens, above La Crescenta, killing him instantly.

Been There, there is another BT-13 that I've searched for on the South Face from 10/1948, I don't think the area where the wreck likely is has burned, there is a private plane wreck in dunsmore from 1969 too...

We narrowed it (the BT-13) down to an area with chest to head high poison oak

There is a Cessna wreck in Big-T the daughter of the pilot wants to visit, he clipped the power lines while flying up canyon 0.18 BAC or something like that

There is the F104 Starfighter on Josephine Peak too... I've petioned the BGN to have it named Casada Cyn

Want to pin point the site for the son of the pilot and send him a bit of wreckage.

Likely Project Remembrance monument location
http://www.aircraftwrecks.com/monuments/remembrance.htm

09/20/44 P38 Hits Just Below Ridgeline Near Mount Wilson

Pretty sure I've been there, Below harvard and yale

11/16/44 C47 #6143 Crashed In Wildcat Gulch Near Mount Wilson

Been to some of it, the site has been salvaged but there is likely more there

12/22/44 B24 from Muroc crashed near Mount Gleason after an explosion in air

I've found a a few pieces, it may well be worth another look now.

12/24/44 BT13 crashed while searching for B24 near Mount Gleason in the Angeles Forest

Got an excellent Idea where this is, have just been waiting for better weather, I got some crash scene photos

07/02/52 USAF C47 #8723 Enroute From El Paso, TX To Van Nuys Crashed On Mount Wilson

Another one I've never heard of...

09/04/56 Two F86's #49-1336N&48-313N From Ontario ANG Base Collide And Crash Above Mount Pacifico.

I've found some of this, was looking for the main wrecksite(s), the one who pilot was killed

07/23/60 B25 Crashes While On Firefighting Mission in Mill Canyon

I've been there

Matt

[HikeUp]

I think tons of 'lost' stuff will be found now. A whole bunch of new stuff to go see and explore (unfortunately).

[AlanK]

I've been there

Matt, you sure get around! And thanks to Kit Fox for bringing up all of those planes.

[dgrimreaper]

I could not have comprehended that it could burn all the way over to Gleason and then on to Pacifico in so little time.

And with no wind...Seems almost impossible to fathom. As for the reason it got so big, I would venture to guess they thought it would be good to have a controlled burn. Now it is an attempted controlled burn. This could be on that new Fox show, "When Good Fires Go Bad."

[Rick Kent]

I can't see at this point how they can even hope to fight it. The perimeter is just too huge.

[mattmaxon]

And with no wind...Seems almost impossible to fathom.

There is plenty of wind at the fire, it creates it's own weather....

All that stuff burning sucks lots of air into the area and up

It is so powerful it is going up to 20,000+ft throwing all those small particles up there too

You'll notice those top out and then flatten without any wind, that is the smoke and fine particles loosing energy

Similar to Pryoclastic flows in Volcanoes, the ash gets thrown up and eventually it becomes too heavy and comes down as superheated pumice and ash, very devastating. Hundresds of MPH and 800-1000°F gas and debris

The smoke isn't that heavy so it doesn't come crashing back down

I have seen thunder storms develop around the smoke at the higher elevations, kinda cool and scary

[mattmaxon]

I can't see at this point how they can even hope to fight it. The perimeter is just too huge.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and this won't be put out in a day either

The weather will have to cooperate, higher humidity, cooler temps, a light to moderate wind so the aircraft can operate

[AW~]

Good job on the map Matt....I did see from video footage that Eaton canyon(looked like the entire canyon almost) and Muir canyons were burned yesterday. Basically also lost Great Falls of the Fox in the Tujunga area...its just too much sometimes as 2 firefighters died defending the south side of MtGleason(Fox Creek drainage).

[Ze Hiker]

time lapse video

Time Lapse Test: Station Fire from Eric Spiegelman on Vimeo.

http://www.videosift.com/video/Socal-Fi ... -Timelapse

[AW~]

This is an outline of the fire on Google Maps

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie ... 88b9f08daa

Unbelievable! That's like the entire SGW going up in smoke. Ugh...I feel ill.

I know.....hehehe Im very curious to head out there once this is over, but watch for a decade long closure....ACH is in really bad shape and already is down to one lane from the news reports(granted its closed to regular traffic) due to landslides....I still might not be stopped 8)

Fire is getting close to the San Gabriel river west side now....strange.

[AW~]

On a positive note I guess it shouldn't be too hard to get to Falls of the Fox anymore. That was half the adventure though.

It will be like the LSA though. Once the rains get through filling it up with dirt it will be changed for quite a long time...not mention potentially dangerous. Access? Will have to walk from Gold Creek road ...or via Mt Lukens...thats quite an approach....

[AW~]

Its all toast!
how did the fire get so uot of control. I have seen better fire combat for the other fires in the past year. when it was just a small blaze east of lukens. They should have had it out in a day

Yeah..something like that. The reason its so big is its not fought at night and runs uncontrolled. But the real kicker I think is that they wanted this fire to burn...its like the Forest Service set the place on fire by not getting it out. Its really lamentable to me that they saw an opportunity to use this to make living in LaCanada safer at the expense of the nature...then it has bitten them in the azz by not being able to defend it in the other areas.

They dont talk about the forest because they dont interact in the same way we do...to them its just a heap of potential trouble. I just hope it doesnt turn into our Katrina as a symbol of government ineptitude. Im not pissed, Im way beyond pissed. Those 2 firefighters who died at the hands of the forest service decisions.

[mattmaxon]

The afternoon pass of the sat shows Mt Wilson summit and antenna farm untouched

The beast has leapfrogged to the head of Tujunga Canyon and the edge of the San Gabriel Wilderness

The north mass had some spotting to Alder Saddle

West and north some slow progress down Mattox Cyn toward Soledad Cyn rd

There is still some active burning on Mt Lukens and Yerba Buena Ridge

A small consolation on the south where it seems to be staying out of Rubio and Eaton

[dgrimreaper]

They dont talk about the forest because they dont interact in the same way we do...to them its just a heap of potential trouble. I just hope it doesnt turn into our Katrina as a symbol of government ineptitude. Im not pissed, Im way beyond pissed. Those 2 firefighters who died at the hands of the forest service decisions.

Everyone is upset about this but you're way out of line. I hate the Washington fat cat politician know-nothings with a passion, but I also know that the local USFS people who get their hands dirty scraping shit and spray paint in our forests love our forests just as much as we do and and they don't play games with people's lives or property.

Those are my friends out there dieing and putting their lives on the line, sweating under heat while you sit at your computer and accuse them of manslaughter.

So angry DamOTclese! I think one thing is certain; with your connections and friendships fighting on the front lines, you probably have more vested interest out there than anyone on this board. Its a shame that this blaze has gotten to this point. I think everyone is disappointed that probably half of their forest, if not more, will end up being burned. It may end up that the wrong decision was made on how to handle the blaze, but hindsight is 20/20, right? Easy to say it was a bad decision now, but it probably seemed like the right one last week. I hope that your friends stay safe out there, and that you are able to get a restful night sleep.

[Kit Fox]

There needs to be an investigation as to why this happened, they need to hold the people responsible accountable

It happened because most of the area hasn't burned since the 50s. I'm going to catch some heat, but, the proper thing to do is protect the structures, and let nature take its course. Fire is natural, but the tree hugger motto of protecting the forest by never allowing it to burn is both unnatural, and unhealthy for the forest. The same thing happened during the La Brea fire. Old growth was allowed to burn itself out.

It looked to me as though they brought in all available resources, at least for the Morris Fire. Still, I have to wonder whether resources were held back due to money restrictions. We are in a Republican economy, maybe some fat cat politicians in Washington or in California's Govs' Office held back for a time.

The economy crashed due to several factors, including a global economic recession. Blaming the Republicans is nothing but partisan rhetoric without proof.

Root Cause Crisis of politically driven crony capitalism
The way it’s presented, Democrats have the media and public convinced they had nothing to do with it.
Over the past eight years, those who have tried to fix Fannie and Freddie (the epicenter of the current meltdown) were
stymied repeatedly by Congressional Democrats. Don’t get me wrong, some key Republicans deserve some blame as well, but the majority stake holders in this meltdown are Democrats. If you want to know how we got here, read on.

Also, I am not taking credit for this research, I am just passing it along so everyone I can reach can understand how this happened and who should be held accountable.

The reason: Fannie and Freddie became massive providers of reliable votes from low-income homeowners and massive
givers to the Democratic Party by investment bankers and Fannie and Freddie.

Where All This Lunacy Began:
It started in 1977 during the Carter presidency. Carter and the Democrats brought us the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA). The main idea, eliminate the practice of redlining by lending institutions. The definition of redlining is banks setting up shop in low income areas, taking their deposits, then lending the funds to rich areas while starving the poor and minorities communities of housing and capital.
The CRA came just years after other major civil rights acts that were passed. But now, blacks felt frozen out of home ownership. So, like most all good intentions without thought, we have bad results. This led to the housing boom, supported by shoddy loan practices, a subsequent bust, and the financial mess we have now.

Between 1977 and the early 1990s
The CRA forced banks and savings institutions to make loans to poor and often uncreditworthy minorities.
Banks were required to keep records of their minority lending practices. If they didn’t pass muster, they were refused to expand, merge with other banks, or boost lending in new markets. There wasn’t much policing required then by government, they let radical community groups like ACORN and NACA syphone billions of dollars from banks and let them lend money in poor communities. These groups booked thousands in fees for every loan and required recipients to become active in radical causes – today’s community organizing or shakedown artists. Can you say Barrack Obama. Clinton Rewrites Rules Making The Subprime Crisis Inevitable
How did the government get so deeply involved in the housing market?
Answer: President Clinton wanted it that way.
After entering office in 93, he extensively rewrote Fannie and Freddie’s rules.
As a result, he turned two quasi-private mortgage funding firms into a semi-nationalized monopoly that dispensed cash to markets, made loans to large Democratic voting blocs and handed favors, jobs, and money to political allies. This led to corruption and their ultimate current day collapse.

Led by top Democrats, including Representative Barney Frank in the House and Senator Chris Dodd in the Senate, Congress not only did nothing about the growing risks at Fannie and Freddie, it in essence doubled down on their risks.
The Democrat-led Congress of the early 1990s eased capital limits on the two mortgage lending giants, letting them use
enormous leverage — 2.5% of assets at Fannie and Freddie, vs. 10% for banks — to expand lending to low-income, minority communities.
Despite warnings of trouble at Fannie and Freddie, in 1994 Clinton unveiled his National Homeownership Strategy, which broadened the CRA in ways Congress never intended.

Congress Eases Lending Rules
In 1994, the Democratic Congress again moved, passing the Community Reinvestment Act — an update of the original
1977 law.
For the first time, homeowners that previously didn't qualify — either because they couldn't put any money down or had bad credit — were made eligible for government-backed loans.

The housing boom was on.
Still, even after the GOP won control of Congress in 1995, Democrats in both houses worked with President Clinton as Fannie and Freddie's enablers.
Clinton, bypassing Republicans in Congress, had HUD rewrite the rules for Fannie and Freddie to let them get involved in the subprime market for the first time. Robert Rubin's Treasury got involved too, reworking its own rules to crack down on banks that didn't make enough loans to distressed, minority neighborhoods.Loans started being made on the basis of race, and often little else. By 2007, Fannie and Freddie owned or guaranteed nearly half of the $12 trillion U.S. mortgage market — a staggering
exposure.

Undersecretary Gary Gensler went to Congress in 2000 seeking an end to the companies' special status — especially
the "implicit" federal guarantee of their now-$5.4 trillion loan portfolio — and more power for regulators to boost the companies' capital requirements.
Democrats raised a ruckus. So did Fannie and Freddie, which were both headed by politically well-connected CEOs who knew how to strategically reward — and punish — those who crossed them. "We think that the statements evidence a contempt for the nation's housing and mortgage markets," Freddie Mac spokeswoman Sharon McHale said at the time, summing up the sentiment in Congress. It was the last chance during the Clinton era for anything like real reform.

Could the crisis at Fannie Mae-Freddie Mac and the subprime meltdown have been avoided?
The answer is yes.
It was as early as 1992, alarm bells were going off on the threat Fannie and Freddie posed to our financial system and
our economy. Intervention at any point could have staved off today's crisis. But Democrats in Congress stood in the
way.
As the president recently said, Democrats have been "resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me . . .
to put some standards and tighten up a little on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." No, it wasn't President Bush who said
that; it was President Clinton, Democrat, speaking just last week.
This is interesting, because it was his administration's relentless focus on multiculturalism that led to looser lending standards and regulatory pressure on banks to make mortgage loans to shaky borrowers.
Democrats Blocked Reform just as Republicans got blamed for Enron, WorldCom and other early-2000s scandals that were actually due to the
anything-goes Clinton era, the media are now blaming them for the mortgage meltdown.
But Republicans tried repeatedly to bring fiscal sanity to Fannie and Freddie. Democrats opposed them, especially
Senator Chris Dodd and Representative Barney Frank, who now run Congress' key banking panels. The Facts about this are crystal clear and history supports them. Even after regulators in 2003 uncovered a scheme by Fannie and Freddie executives to overstate earnings by $10.6 billion to boost bonuses, the Democrats killed reform. "Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are not facing any kind of financial crisis," said Rep. Frank, then-ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee.
North Carolina Democrat Melvin Watt accused the White House of "weakening the bargaining power of poorer
families and their ability to get affordable housing." In 2005, then-Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan told Congress: "We are placing the total financial system of the future at substantial risk."McCain Urged Changes
That year, Sen. John McCain, one of three sponsors of a Fannie-Freddie reform bill, said: "If Congress does not act,
American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the
housing market, the overall financial system and the economy as a whole."
Sen. Harry Reid — now Majority Leader — accused the GOP of trying to "cripple the ability of Fannie Mae and
Freddie Mac to carry out their mission of expanding homeownership." The bill went nowhere.
This year, the media have repeated Democrats' talking points about this being a "Republican" disaster. Well, McCain
has repeatedly called for reforming the mortgage giants. The White House has repeatedly warned Congress. This year
alone, Bush urged reform 17 times. Some GOP members are complicit. But Fannie and Freddie were created by
Democrats, regulated by Democrats, largely run by Democrats and protected by Democrats. That's why taxpayers are
now being asked for $700 billion.
While there are critics pointing to the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act as the cause of this, there is some justification to
do that, however, the first public securitization of CRA loans started in 1997 by Bear Stearns (first in, first out) two
years before the repeal. While the repeal probably accelerated the overleveraging, it doesn’t serve as the beginning of
mandatory neglect of fiduciary responsibility by lending institutions imposed by the government (Democrats as the
majority with some Republicans participating).

The cause is globalism. Every one of the items listed has as its root cause the goal of globalizing our government,
including Carter’s CRA. It is a manifestation of the UN’s human settlement/habitation programs. Every illegal alien
from Mexico who bought a house here can thank a UN ‘treaty’ for the genesis of the programs that allowed him to
purchase the house, tied in with the transnational bankers greed at getting their hands on Mexico as a market for their
products. Just see the Security and Prosperity Partnership documents on the web for the details.

It could also be USFS policy to let things burn when they're not threatening residential houses. I would rather see houses burn than the forest.

I'd rather see the forest burn more often, stopping for 50 plus years only makes it worse.

[kgw]

Here's what the smoke clouds look like from Signal Hill in Long Beach:

[AlanK]

Let's keep politics out of this. I do not blame Kit Fox for his long political post because he die not start it, but DamOTclese has, in effect, offered a truce. Or at least a cease fire.

[Tim]

I have no opinion on how this was handled by the authorities but you have to admit that having probably half of the Angeles National Forest burn down to nothing is pretty depressing. Imagine driving up Hwy 2...it will look like a wasteland. Strawberry Peak totally burned down, Lawlor, maybe even Vetter. All of those areas are now nothing but dirt and ash. The chaparral will grow back but I could do without them. I just hope the trees and animals survived, unlike Ontario Peak which has never been the same.

[edenooch]

Will the highway stay closed after the fires are out?

[Ze Hiker]

Will the highway stay closed after the fires are out?

depends on the damage, and how long it would take to fix. the Curve Fire closed a part of the 2 for 5 or so years!

[edenooch]

took them 5 years to make the little bridge after islip saddle i can only imagine a clean up job

[Mike P]

Will the highway stay closed after the fires are out?

depends on the damage, and how long it would take to fix. the Curve Fire closed a part of the 2 for 5 or so years!

Z, I thought that Hwy 2 was closed because of winter damage not because of the Curve fire.

[dgrimreaper]

Will the highway stay closed after the fires are out?

depends on the damage, and how long it would take to fix. the Curve Fire closed a part of the 2 for 5 or so years!

I guess we won't know the full extent of the damage until the rainy season is over next spring. Unstable hillsides in a possible El Nino year could be disastrous.

[Ze Hiker]

Will the highway stay closed after the fires are out?

depends on the damage, and how long it would take to fix. the Curve Fire closed a part of the 2 for 5 or so years!

Z, I thought that Hwy 2 was closed because of winter damage not because of the Curve fire.

woops i think you are right. but i thought the winter falll was indirectly due to the fire weakening the terrain or something.

[AlanK]

I have no opinion on how this was handled by the authorities but you have to admit that having probably half of the Angeles National Forest burn down to nothing is pretty depressing. Imagine driving up Hwy 2...it will look like a wasteland. Strawberry Peak totally burned down, Lawlor, maybe even Vetter. All of those areas are now nothing but dirt and ash. The chaparral will grow back but I could do without them. I just hope the trees and animals survived, unlike Ontario Peak which has never been the same.

Well said, Tim!

[Kit Fox]

I've been working on a list on military wreck sites that disappeared in the formerly dense undergrowth of ANF.

04/06/43 BT-13A flown by instructor William T. Nunn from Cal Aero School at Ontario AAF crashed on north slope of Mt. Lukens, above La Crescenta, killing him instantly.

Been There, there is another BT-13 that I've searched for on the South Face from 10/1948, I don't think the area where the wreck likely is has burned, there is a private plane wreck in dunsmore from 1969 too...

We narrowed it (the BT-13) down to an area with chest to head high poison oak

There is a Cessna wreck in Big-T the daughter of the pilot wants to visit, he clipped the power lines while flying up canyon 0.18 BAC or something like that

There is the F104 Starfighter on Josephine Peak too... I've petioned the BGN to have it named Casada Cyn

Want to pin point the site for the son of the pilot and send him a bit of wreckage.

Likely Project Remembrance monument location
http://www.aircraftwrecks.com/monuments/remembrance.htm

09/20/44 P38 Hits Just Below Ridgeline Near Mount Wilson

Pretty sure I've been there, Below harvard and yale

11/16/44 C47 #6143 Crashed In Wildcat Gulch Near Mount Wilson

Been to some of it, the site has been salvaged but there is likely more there

12/22/44 B24 from Muroc crashed near Mount Gleason after an explosion in air

I've found a a few pieces, it may well be worth another look now.

12/24/44 BT13 crashed while searching for B24 near Mount Gleason in the Angeles Forest

Got an excellent Idea where this is, have just been waiting for better weather, I got some crash scene photos

07/02/52 USAF C47 #8723 Enroute From El Paso, TX To Van Nuys Crashed On Mount Wilson

Another one I've never heard of...

09/04/56 Two F86's #49-1336N&48-313N From Ontario ANG Base Collide And Crash Above Mount Pacifico.

I've found some of this, was looking for the main wrecksite(s), the one who pilot was killed

07/23/60 B25 Crashes While On Firefighting Mission in Mill Canyon

I've been there

Matt

Matt,

Have you visited or seen the F-100 wreck in Alder Gulch (near Ross Mountain?)

[edenooch]

hopefully the snow level will be 3500 feet like last year and cover up this bloodiness for winter hikes