Speaking of mt. bikes & hiking trails

[outwhere]

I remember several encounters with mountain bikers on narrow hiking trails - especially around the Mt. Lowe area.

Are mountain bikers supposed to yield to hikers - or are we all on the same page when it comes to trails?

I really didn't appreciate it when these bikers would blow down the narrow trails/blind corners, very quickly, with essentially no regards to hikers.

A couple of times, I had no choice but to hold my ground - it was either me or them when it came to going over the side.

Despite being totally out of control, one biker barked at me for not getting out of his way - he yelled this as he was climbing back up the side of the mountain that he said I forced him down. I didn't truly force him down, I just had no place to move that quickly on the narrow trail.

And then there is the issue of them braking real hard and carving up the trails.

Is this still an issue up in the hills? Curious what others might want to say on this...

[cmachler]

In the Santa Monica Mountatins, where horses, hikers, and bikers are allowed on the trails, the signs indicate hikers and bikers yield to horses, and bikers yield to hikers.

[RichardK]

I have seen those who-yields-to-who signs in many places. The pecking order on trail is

1. Horses - because they can be skittish around strangers
2. Hikers and foot traffic
3. Bicycles - because of their mobility they should be able to avoid the others

The biggest problem is bike riders who travel downhill at breakneck speeds on narrow trails. On the trails that are fairly wide, we hug the right hand side and have avoided collisions. On narrow trails with little room to move aside, you have to look ahead and listen carefully for the bikes. Chino Hills SP has 15 MPH speed limit signs posted, but they are widely ignored. I suppose, in the event of a crash with a speeding rider, you would have the basis for a civil suit.

[406]

I'm an avid mountain biker and like the others said the biker should yield to horses and hikers or bikers traveling up hill. I ride with a bear bell on my handlebars so hikers hear me coming on narrow trails. I normally ride >50 miles per week and haven't had a bad encounter with horse or hiker in years. There is definitely a small bad element within the mountain biking ( or hiking or horse) community, normally newbies. If this happens again and you talk to the biker remind them that they are threatening bike access for all bikers to that trail. Another thing, you could email the mountain bike advocacy group that is active in that area and let them know what happened. On some of the trails in San Diego our group has put signs and boxes with bear bells to educate bikers. Sorry you had a bad encounter, most bikers also hike and want to have a good relationship with the hiking community.

[AlanK]

I'm an avid mountain biker and like the others said the biker should yield to horses and hikers or bikers traveling up hill. I ride with a bear bell on my handlebars so hikers hear me coming on narrow trails. I normally ride >50 miles per week and haven't had a bad encounter with horse or hiker in years. There is definitely a small bad element within the mountain biking ( or hiking or horse) community, normally newbies. If this happens again and you talk to the biker remind them that they are threatening bike access for all bikers to that trail. Another thing, you could email the mountain bike advocacy group that is active in that area and let them know what happened. On some of the trails in San Diego our group has put signs and boxes with bear bells to educate bikers. Sorry you had a bad encounter, most bikers also hike and want to have a good relationship with the hiking community.

As a hiker and biker, I say "Well put!"

[Ze Hiker]

I ride with a bear bell on my handlebars so hikers hear me coming on narrow trails.

that's good they can hear you, but are you going to be able to see them and stop in enough time?

just like cars on a road, bikers gotta be ready to stop.

nothing personal, but if a mountain biker comes flying around a turn toward me, they're the one who is going to end up hurt

[PackerGreg]

Mountain bikes, and their riders, are not generically a problem. It is the the subclass called "freeriders" that are a menace. They have made impressive advancements in suspension and brakes, as well as the protective gear, but that has only encouraged an outlaw attitude.

They are now capable of traveling downhill at speeds that used to be unfathomable, especially considering obstacles, but it is entirely unsafe for other mountain travelers - including fellow bikers that may have different equipment, and/or may be traveling uphill. And their attitude towards the bear bells is that they are a warning for you to get out of their perceived right of way, so if they have a bell and you get hurt, it's your own fault.

The Forest Service has tried to crack down on these guys (yes, only guys - which tells you something), especially in areas like Sunset Ridge (Millard Canyon) where they really tear up the trails. There is a CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) law against "destruction of resources". The rangers have tried to "pull over" the bikers to ticket them, but since the rangers are on foot at the time, the bikers just give them the finger and ride on. ANF management has half-heartedly tried to bust the guys making money from driving the bikers to places like Mount Wilson, because they are operating a business within the forest boundary without a permit, but they just keep coming.

Now, here I'll tell you a thing or two with this preface: my fat ass has planted itself on a mountain bike seat many a time in the San Gabriels. First on my '92 Marin, secondly on my '99 GT, then on my '05 Gary Fisher, which I still have and love. I do enjoy mountain biking and exploring the San Gabes as such. But these "freeriders" have got to be stopped!

It's nerve-racking enough to see 10 or 15 dreadlocked guys (and you know who you are) headed towards you at 40 MPH, but when you add eight to ten loaded donkeys to the mix, it's downright terrifying! On those occasions, I couldn't care less about the obnoxious bike rider, but they were jeopardizing the lives of the animals, and the livelihood of many people.

The most annoying thing about these guys is (cover your ears kids) not the fact that they are inconsiderate and dangerous assholes, it is that they are pussies! And I have told them so to their pussy faces as they would ride away from me and my pack string. THEY DON'T EARN THEIR RIDE!!! Some joker with a van trucks them uphill and they just coast down. I don't see why they need pedals - just some pegs would do - because when they get to a hill, they all get off and push the bikes! They're not even in good shape because my fat ass, pulling six or eight other fat asses on a rope, has caught up with them as they lug those big-geared monstrosities uphill.

I can't tell you how many times I wanted to put a hiking stick through the spokes of one of these freeriders. Well, it was about the same amount of times that I thought of spilling roofing nails, putting carpeting tack strips under leaves, stringing up piano wire, excavating tiger traps...

The good bikers are over at CORBA - Concerned Off-Road Bicyclists Association (http://www.corbamtb.com/)

A solution might be here...

[OutdoorAbstract]

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nothing personal, but if a mountain biker comes flying around a turn toward me, they're the one who is going to end up hurt

Well put. I share this approach to dealing with lawbreakers.

[simonov]

The Holy Jim Trail to the top of Santiago Peak is actually maintained by the Warriors, a mountain biking club. If it wasn't for them, there may not be a maintained trail at all.

I used to have a prejudice against mountain bikers, assuming they tore up the trails (of course, they are prohibited from Wilderness Areas). But I encounter them quite often on the Holy Jim Trail and also in Crystal Cove State Park, and I have almost never had a problem with them. And they are a lot easier on the trails than horses are.

I have no doubt there are assholes among them with no regard for the safety of others, but fortunately I haven't run into any of these here in OC (though I have certainly met a handful with an attitude).

[Bill]

Kinda reminds me of the snowboarder vs. skier mentality.
I think the difference being most mountain bikers are responsible but there are a few bad apple types that cast the rest in a bad light. It is up to the biking community to police themselves and not turn it in to the me-first irresponsible attitude that unfortunately has taken over the snow-boarder crowd.

[norma r]

the triangle of yielding Richard K. mentioned is accurate and posted all over the Santa Monica Mountain trails. i was an avid mtn biker until i became a passionate mountaineer. i was also a member of CORBA, IMBA and a mtn biking club. prior to being a biker i was a trail runner and hated mtn bikers from all the near-misses on the trails with them. i find the worst offenders of the trails are immature guys that forget the trail is not just for them. i once was riding with a girlfriend in Sullivan Cyn when a mtn biker coming the other way yelled at her cuz she got in his way as he was on a self-proclaimed timed-trial. so i have seen a biker be rude to another biker. The last time I rode the McGill Trail on Mt. Pinos it saddened me to see the erosion caused by the downhill free-riders that skid into turns. I personally would like to see high speed downhill riding eliminated from multi-use trails and stay in bike parks, e.g. Mammoth, Whistler.

anyhoo... when i tried the sport and fell in love with it i decided i would be the most pleasant biker and always said hello, rang a bell gently to alert others on the trail, wore a radio to communicate with my fellow bikers and of course yielded to riders, runners and hikers. CORBA, IMBA and mtn biking clubs such a North Ranch Mountain Bikers educate mtn bikers, actively participate in trail maintenance and work to keep trails open for our pleasure. as in any sport, there are mostly good people and a few bad apples. it's a fun sport and afforded me the opportunity to ride some amazing trails all over the western U.S.

regarding etiquette on the trail, how many times have you been hiking uphill on a narrow trail and get mowed down by a hiker coming downhill??? seems most hikers also don't know the etiquette of the trail.

[solar]

For years responsible freeriders/downhillers have tried to find ways to build appropriate trails or initiate bike parks, but they (we) are always stopped by EIRs, insurance, or just ignorance (from riders and the public).
Big bear killed DH riding due to the above reasons. We're still waiting for Baldy and Waterman to come through. CORBA was gonna build a bike trail near Mt. Hilyer and it was supposedly "approved", but maybe the fire killed that one.

If waterman was able to sustain a bike park the user conflict that rears its ugly head on the front range will be eliminated plain and simple.

Honestly, Mammoth and Whislter are great, but what if you had to travel so far just to hike? Doesn't make sense considering the resources we have right here.

I am a DHer (freerder) and a hiker. I do not believe in multi-use trails. Personally I hate riding on trials I know hikers will be on. Those trails are usually boring and it's not fun having to wait and yeild the trail. It is simply not appropriate to be pinning it on a hiking trail. Likewise, I hate to hike trails I know bikes will be on for the same reasons.

Canada seems to have it right. Yes, there are user conflicts up north, but for the most part bikers stay off hiking trails and hikers know bike trails are not easy to hike. Perhaps a ressurection of the doctrine of "Seperate but equal"??? lol.

There are plenty of knuckleheads to go around when it comes to all types of trails users, so its unfair to place the blame soley on hikers/bikers/equestrians/ etc.

I do like ze's comment. Honestly, some of the riders need to know they can get their asses kicked too!

The bottom line is the user groups need to communicate.

PS- Totally on a tangent, but everytime I've passed a group of Korean hikers on the bike (after yielding of course) they cheer for us for being able to ride the bikes on the trail!

[obie]

PS- Totally on a tangent, but everytime I've passed a group of Korean hikers on the bike (after yielding of course) they cheer for us for being able to ride the bikes on the trail!

Yep, I get that too on the fire road to Baldy Notch. I also hear "you crazy?"

The craziest MTB ride, on a weekend, has to be Holy Jim. Never saw so much potential for carnage...tight single-track, loads of hikers, blind turns...and yet there's a hardcore group of MTB climbers who will hammer that ride to the service road like it's the La Ruta. Foolish of them to assume they wont get knocked off and/or go off way down the mtn.side. Just makes no sense to ignore conditions and push thru the crowds with their ding-dings. The guys I know that ride Holy Jim wouldn't even consider doing that ride on a weekend. It's simply too dicey to ride that w/o hikers anyway and why make it harder with a lot of foot traffic? (I do notice that there is a sense of entitlement for MTB'ers on Holy Jim since they have done a lot to build and maintain the trail, as noted on the signage at the trailhead.)

El Moro down here in Laguna can be a bit unruly on the weekends but I've never seen much trouble there. The MTB crowd around there are pretty skilled riders - semi-pros and big names abound. You do not want to be seen by those guys running people off trails - the regulars will give you a lecture on the spot. I've seen that - they teach you respect fairly fast down there.

The STR (SoCal Trail Riders) forum has a lot of people posting about trail etiqutte for MTB'ers. No one wants to see dumb riding - it's bad for the sport and who the heck wants to get punked by some DH kid flaming down some tight trail?

Hikers are the same - most considerate, a few dingbats. The three guys who got stranded on Whitney recently, after ignoring Doug Fowler's weather warnings, certainly did nothing to enhance the image of hikers as being sef-sufficient and savy outdoorsmen.

[Sewellymon]

Have been a San Gabs hiker since '70, trail runner since '80 and mt biker since '85... so i get it

This spring I was riding up Upper Winter Creek-some downhillers came around a corner with a bit too much speed. Not horrific, but I gave them a ton of sh*t. Could of give some old Korean hiker lady a heart attack....