Kit List *BRAINSTORM THREAD*

[Taco]

I don't mean for this to be a sort of rethought or reinvented "10 essentials" list, but just a place to brainstorm certain key pieces of gear that one should always bring on a hike. I'm aiming more towards mountaineering, climbing, and canyoneering with some of the items, such as the radios, as when things get desperate on technical ground, well, you get the idea.

I have some of my own personal experience and opinions in here on some of the products. Your mileage may vary. Hope I don't hurt anyone's feelings when I say I feel product A is crap, and product B is tits. I just want to cut out the bullshit items that slow you down, and only carry versatile pieces of gear that actually last.

Please add your two cents. This thread is basically a list that's gonna be "under construction" for a long time.


-=WHISTLES=-

The folks I've seen use whistles most efficiently thus far are Canyoneers. Canyoneers typically have to deal with a torrent of water crashing down around them, making verbal communication impractical. A couple blasts on a good whistle is easy to do, requires little energy, and is easy to understand.

For general mountaineering, one can use a whistle to communicate in the same manner, and also to communicate over long distances when or if a party becomes separated.

In bad (good, IMHO) weather, a whistle is a helluva lot easier to understand than yelling. Often times a climber says too much when they really just need to convey a point, such as "you're on belay!", or "I'm off rope/clipped into the anchor!".

My personal choice is the Fox 40 Micro Safety.
http://www.fox40world.com/index.cfm?DSP ... og&id=4130

This whistle is relatively flat, so it fits on my issue dog tags, and I can wear it under just about everything except body armor with hard plates (might be necessary in some canyons around here ). The downside is that the whistle doesn't have a low-end, basically you can't have really modulate the tone/volume. It's loud, or nothing.

Other Fox 40's are great on a lanyard on one's pack strap. I just don't like having stuff hanging off my pack strap doing winter climbing, etc.


*WHISTLE BLASTS*

1 short = off rope (canyoneering)
2 short = wait!
3 short/long (3 of anything) = I need help!




-=RADIOS=-

FRS/GMRS with extra batteries. Must be able to withstand whatever conditions you expect to encounter. I don't know much about radios or what's out there at the moment.

The Garmin Rino is a combo GPS - Radio. The plus side is obvious, but I don't know how long the battery lasts powering two devices, both basically working passively while one is climbing.

I use the uniden GMR2875-2CK my hands down favorite...when I use one

-=HEADLAMPS=-

Headlamp brands:
-Black Diamond - http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us
-Petzl - http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/headlamps/all-headlamps
-Mammut - http://www.mammut.ch/
-Surefire - http://www.surefire.com/Headlamps

I currently use a Petzl Tikka. I used to think it was bright enough to work with, but it really isn't. Something that shoots a beam out to the end of a rope would be awesome.

Most outdoorsy folks are unfamiliar with Surefire. I doubt many people have bought the Saint headlamps because of the very high price. That said, my experience with Surefire is that their lights work perfectly, last for-freaking-ever, and are made with the best materials, by the best people out there. If I could only buy one flashlight or headlamp ever, it would be a Surefire product. That said, I'm broke as hell and I can't afford $185. Maybe Greg can hook me up?

The only products of theirs I do not like are the inexpensive G2/Nitrolon series (the polymer models). They're less-than waterproof.

Their lights are very powerful. Some folks have melted their gear because they left the tailcap screwed down all the way, or thrown it in with a bunch of disorganized crap in their truck. These aren't the little cheesy flashlights you get at Wally World, so you hafta be careful with them.

The LED versions heat up less, and the batteries last longer. There's less of a chance of you burning your pack down with one of these if you're disorganized.

The Petzl Tikka is way too dim. They were an OK light in their day (like 8 years ago), but way outclassed these days. I've got a PrincetonTec EOS that I really like.

Petzl Myo XP long lasting... High output when you need it.

http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/myo-series/myo-xp




-=KNIFE/MULTITOOL=-

Multitool brands:
-Leatherman - http://www.leatherman.com/
-Gerber - http://www.gerbergear.com/
-SOG - http://sogknives.com/

I have a Leatherman, am glad I don't have a Gerber, and wish I had a SOG. Your mileage may vary.

A multitool is generally more versatile than a knife. Since I carry both, I prefer a multitool without knife blades, since the damn things end up pulling out with every other tool and I just about cut my damn fingers off.

As for knives... being a "knife guy", I've seen both sides of the knife argument. There are folks who say you only need a Swiss Army knife with its crappy little non-locking blades, and there are some knife knuts who think you need a badass 7" CPM-S30V Crucible blade with carbon fibre scales and all that shit. The truth is somewhere in the middle, I guess. I have a ton of knives of all types, and I pretty much always have a small "Kiridashi" type knife, with a blade length of one inch. It's enough for most tasks, but obviously not going to be of any help if I need to make a lean-to or shelter, or dig a poop hole, or forage for and prepare food, etc.

IMHO the best buy on the market for a general purpose knife is the Cold Steel SRK.

http://www.coldsteel.com/srk.html

They can be found for pretty cheap ($120 MSRP is higher than I've sold them for). They don't have anything special about them, which is precisely what makes them good. The handle is very grippy, and the blade is VERY sharp out of the box. I believe their blade length to be ideal for most outdoor tasks.

It can be a real pain in the ass to find a decent knife. There are tons of super awesome tactical knives that you can shoot down helicopters with but you can't spread butter on a friggin' piece of bread with, and then there are a few good ones that'll do most anything hidden in the mess.

A knife should be kept as sharp as possible. "It doesn't need to be razor sharp!" is often uttered before someone accidentally jabs theirself with their crappy dull knife. Sharper = less work = safer, straight up. A dull knife is an improperly-maintained tool. Shaving sharpness can be a pain in the ass to achieve (or I just suck at sharpening), but you want to make sure it's sharp enough to cut cord and webbing effortlessly WITHOUT serrations.

I personally do not like serrations. One can sharpen their knife in the field more easily if it lacks serrations (using a stone, curb, etc). Most folks just use serrations after they've realized their knife is dull and they're too lazy to get it sharpened.

In terms of a fixed blade knife, I've got a Kershaw Antelope that I really like. Inexpensive, fairly light (about 1/4 lbs), nicely balanced, good quality.

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/316, ... -Pack.html



-=WATER FILTERS=-

With respect to a water filter, that seems like an odd choice. Most of the water away from roads in the San Gabs is pretty clean. I regularly drink w/o any treatment and have done so since the 60's, and I've never had a problem. Even if I had to drink water in a heavily used area (where I wouldn't normally drink), Giardia takes a week or three to show up, so I'd have plenty of time to get out of a jam. A filter seems like a lot to lug around for not much pay off. If I were really worried about bugs in the water, I might bring some chlorine dioxide tabs with me.

FWIW, I've drank out of the east fork ~ Iron Fork and Dry Gulch and had no issues. I would consider both areas low on human use / flow ratio.

The gold standard is Katadyn.

I have a Katadyn Pocket which has a 20 year warranty, built like a tank and weighs like one too. This has been relegated to my auto earth quake kit

http://www.katadyn.com/katadyn-products ... yn-pocket/

I also have a Katadyn Camp which I use occasionally kinda a pain to set up but it beats pumping gallons of water.

http://www.katadyn.com/en/katadyn-produ ... adyn-camp/

I've used a Katadyn Expedition many times on backcountry work projects.

http://www.katadyn.com/en/katadyn-produ ... xpedition/

The one I use currently is a MSR Sweetwater I feel it is a good compromise between weight and cost. Certainly not the best but it works.

http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/water ... er/product

-=OTHER=-

Of the ten essentials, I personally can't recommend a map & compass strongly enough. Doing your homework in advance and staying on top of your map while en route will prevent trouble before it starts.

Beyond the ten essentials, I typically carry:
- Duct tape
- Important Meds (3 day supply) -- Prescriptions, Antihistamines (e.g. Benadryl), Imodium, Anti-Inflammatory, etc.
- Whistle -- Micro Fox 40
- Signal Mirror
- Shelter (e.g. space blanket, space blanket bivvy sack, tube tent, etc.)
- Rain gear (poncho for three season, Gore Tex top & bottom for winter) -- may be left behind in So. Cal in summer
- Watch
- Bandana
- Insect repellent (DEET or Picaridin)
- Cell phone

Please add whatever you feel is necessary!

[mattmaxon]

*WHISTLE BLASTS*

2 short = off rope (canyoneering)
3 short/long (3 of anything) = I need help!

(please add more here!!!)

FWIW
ACA trained canyoners

1=off rope
2=wait
3=trouble

But I agree a whistle is a much better signaling device, I always have one with me

Radio
I use the uniden GMR2875-2CK my hands down favorite...when I use one

Headlamp
Petzl Myo XP long lasting... High output when you need it

Knife
don't really carry one generally for canyoneering I use the petzl one or a utility knife

Houdini kit
don't need one.
I use great care to not myself into such a situation, carefully studying my route on maps, virtual and on the ground scouting and talking with folks in the know.

If I feel there is a possibility I might need to rappel I have my canyoneering gear.

If we're talking survival...
Waterfilter is an absolute must. You'll survive for weeks with water 3-4 days without

[Hikin_Jim]

I personally would not recommend Gerber. My experience with them is that their products are mediocre. YMMV.

The Petzl Tikka is way too dim. They were an OK light in their day (like 8 years ago), but way outclassed these days. I've got a PrincetonTec EOS that I really like.

In terms of a fixed blade knife, I've got a Kershaw Antelope that I really like. Inexpensive, fairly light (about 1/4 lbs), nicely balanced, good quality.

Of the ten essentials, I personally can't recommend a map & compass strongly enough. Doing your homework in advance and staying on top of your map while en route will prevent trouble before it starts.

Beyond the ten essentials, I typically carry:
- Duct tape
- Important Meds (3 day supply) -- Prescriptions, Antihistamines (e.g. Benadryl), Imodium, Anti-Inflammatory, etc.
- Whistle -- Micro Fox 40
- Signal Mirror
- Shelter (e.g. space blanket, space blanket bivvy sack, tube tent, etc.)
- Rain gear (poncho for three season, Gore Tex top & bottom for winter) -- may be left behind in So. Cal in summer
- Watch
- Bandana
- Insect repellent (DEET or Picaridin)
- Cell phone

With respect to a water filter, that seems like an odd choice. Most of the water away from roads in the San Gabs is pretty clean. I regularly drink w/o any treatment and have done so since the 60's, and I've never had a problem. Even if I had to drink water in a heavily used area (where I wouldn't normally drink), Giardia takes a week or three to show up, so I'd have plenty of time to get out of a jam. A filter seems like a lot to lug around for not much pay off. If I were really worried about bugs in the water, I might bring some chlorine dioxide tabs with me.

Just my thoughts,

HJ

[Taco]

Updated!

Matt, the Houdini kit idea came from winter mountaineering, when I'm travelling alone and have been in situations where it comes in handy (self-rescue, severe weather, etc).

[AW~]

Approach shoe
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/boots/approach/?page=1

bang for the bucks would go to evolv Rex. Canyoneers likely to go with more expensive brands 5.10s, La Sportiva, Exum Ridge,Vasque....either way, none of these has received the stamp of approval since we ask a lot from a shoe.

Maybe not essential essential and one can get away with a semi approach shoe.Ive used water booties before...they are nice, however they have zero ankle support which can be a blessing or curse, depending...they last a while. Could go even cheaper with a clearance sale type shoe, likely not worth it since it wont last as long...have to look at how well the bottom is assembled into the top portion, little tread, lack of ankle support,etc.

[AW~]

Socks

Specifically dress socks..hehe, just joking...but of course a shoe is not just a foot...but foot+sock = shoe size. A sock that can sub in as a glove, heck, sometimes a sock can sub as a temporary shoe. Note: Not really necessary with a water bootie.

Da standard is Sealskinz, but plenty of good,cheaper subsitutes on the market...something tight fitting so no loose stuff crawls inside..something strong so that stinging nettle doesnt cause you to yelp.

[AW~]

Pants

Whats that you say, you are wearing shorts since its hot outside? Arrgghh!
Again, no standard here....but rugged terrain travel requires a good set of pants. Ive bought wildland pants, used,(they be the green ones you see) and they try to survive. Pants can get expensive really quickly, from JoeRocket to a new pair of firefighting pants...you cant escape the price.

Or you can try and sneak by wearing a couple of thift store pairs at once.

Either way, it wont protect you from a Yucca stab and it wont be waterproof to swim in for awhile...but what is essential about it?

1) Not likely to tear...so if you are downclimbing/stemming/etc you dont end up in your underwear going through poison oak. They grip the rock well for added stability.
2) They likely are going to be more breathable than regular pants so ya wont overheat and then someone says why is that guy wearing pants when its 100 out?
3) They drain water much quicker...who wants to slog around in water soaked jeans that are going to continue to weigh three times their weight for hours?
4) Can sleep in them....or on them.
5) Anchor material...eeh? Yes, these pants are strongggg. Fall off a motorcycle no problem strong...can I just slide down that steep section of cliff? why yes you may. How about fall off the cliff? Umm....possibly although there is still the impact to worry about.

[Taco]

I almost always wear shorts. I really only wear pants in winter. I wear Dickies, and they last forever. I don't prefer pants for bushwhacking or any other purpose. Just my two cents.

[mattmaxon]

Updated!

Matt, the Houdini kit idea came from winter mountaineering, when I'm travelling alone and have been in situations where it comes in handy (self-rescue, severe weather, etc).

I nearly died in North Fork of Santa Anita Canyon and vowed never to put myself or anyone else in such a situation ever again.

I'm not going into something I've not carefully considered and scouted.

This stubborn stance has created some issues, at trailheads but I'll stand firm on it.

Maybe I'm overly cautious, maybe not. I'll hike up from the bottom, look at it from different angles, study it on google earth, worldwind, etc... Talk with anyone I can find with reliable information

If I feel there is even a chance I'll need it it, I'm bringing my gear.

With respect to a water filter, that seems like an odd choice.

I'm not too concerned about giradia... But I've seen what goes on, and you might as well drink out of your toilet as drink surface water in Southern California mountains.

In a survival situation a water borne illness could be fatal

[Taco]

Matt, if that's how you handle it, I suggest never straying from that way. Never compromise your values. I've kicked myself for breaking my rules before (and nearly gotten myself into bad juju).

I've gone places where nobody has gone before... or at least there's no trace of their having been there. But, we both do different things in the outdoors.

[AW~]

Houdini - yup, theres a balance between training and trips and if you tip it out of balance of not doing any training, then...well.....essential is the ability to call SAR.

I think humans have a natural risk avoidance to a lack of control and that often goes against them because they lower their guard. Happens to me often even though I know of the possibility of an alternative....at least I know now for sure to know the waterflow before committing.

Like Matt said, planning is definitely part of the equation and IMO not as taught as much as it should be, but more and more it has been. I think its OK to laugh at it too since it can get comical.

[Hikin_Jim]

I'm not too concerned about giradia... But I've seen what goes on, and you might as well drink out of your toilet as drink surface water in Southern California mountains.

Well, I won't argue with direct observation. On the other hand, I've been drinking untreated water since the 60's without any ill effects. I think each person has to make his or her own assessment of the risks involved. I certainly respect choices other than my own.

As for me, I am pretty selective about what I'll drink untreated. High use areas, areas close to trailheads, areas where camps are upstream, etc. are not areas I would drink untreated water in. Remote areas, springs, side streams descending from a remote area, those are places where I'm more likely to drink untreated water. In a pinch, one time I did drink water out of the E Fork of the San Gabriel River. I was quite anxious that I had done so, but nothing happened. I wouldn't recommend following my example in that case.

For myself, I don't normally bring a filter unless I plan to use it. If refilling from a known reliable water source is part of my plan, then I might well bring a water filter. If it's just a situation where "it might be nice to have", I generally just bring chlorine dioxide tabs.

In a survival situation a water borne illness could be fatal

Maybe. I'm not an epidemiologist, but most of the stuff that I've heard about that might be in our local waters takes a while before symptoms show. My planning horizon for wilderness emergencies is 72 hours (three days). I'm not aware of anything that is common that would take a person out in a three day time span. Again, I'm not an epidemiologist, so I could be wrong there. In fact, if you have some documentation regarding water borne illness other than Giardia, then I'd be most interested in seeing it. I'd much rather be well informed that "right".

HJ

[Taco]

Houdini - yup, theres a balance between training and trips and if you tip it out of balance of not doing any training, then...well.....essential is the ability to call SAR.

I think humans have a natural risk avoidance to a lack of control and that often goes against them because they lower their guard. Happens to me often even though I know of the possibility of an alternative....at least I know now for sure to know the waterflow before committing.

Like Matt said, planning is definitely part of the equation and IMO not as taught as much as it should be, but more and more it has been. I think its OK to laugh at it too since it can get comical.

OK, maybe I missed something. I'll put it in Thok mode.

[thokmode]

I go to new place. Nobody know anything about new place. I do this in winter, alone (OMFGzzz!). I not plan on climbing roped (no bring rack/gear), just solo with ice stabbing spikes that cost Thok lot of wampum.

Thok need rappel to escape bad situation! Maybe Thok injured! Maybe Thok just sketched! Maybe Thok need help injured skiier or random non-Thok-like individual. Thok glad he bring light stuff. This is what Thok mean by Houdini kit.

Google Erf not accurate enough to tell Thok that there BIG CLIFF that Thok must go down. All USGS/Tom Harrison/Any other map not accurate enough to tell Thok that there huge disintegrating cliff here! Thok not able to downclimb. Thok fucked. Thok then remember he bring kit. Thok use kit. Thok happy!

[/thokmode]

I don't mean to sound condescending or anything, but canyoneers do things far differently from alpinists, especially solo alpinists like myself. I go places that nobody knows anything about. How many people do you know who have climbed up Mine Gulch on Baden Powell in winter? I can climb waterfall ice, but descending it safely is a huuuuuuuuuge pain in the ass. Keep in mind, this is all done alone. If I was with someone, we would probably carry normal kit (for this route).

Gnawmsayin'?

Such is Thok's stance.

[Hikin_Jim]

Thok use kit. Thok happy![/thokmode]

Well, and there you have it.

Thok on!

HJ

[AW~]

Canyoneer tells Thok training is not only about gear and technique but also about what if this,what if that scenario. If Thok bring whistle, what if Thok hear 1 whistle when 3 were blown? What if Thok dont hear anything? What if Thok partner drop whistle over the cliff?

The more Thok think about it, the more problematic things can get by rappelling with light kit. So much so ,that only trained Thok can get away. Only trained Thok knows how much and where pain is adminstered rappeling with no descender...only trained Thok knows how to use 3mm rope or any other emergency rappelling...and during training, Thok will really hate the experience.

Frozen waterfall climbing...
http://picasaweb.google.com/jared.e.cam ... 7940413714

[Taco]

Now I'm very confused.

I use Thok Mode (tm) because I'm very bad at putting what I mean into words (hence why I prefer to be quiet in person).

Well, it works for me, so I'll get rid of it since it appears it has no place here. Let's move on.

[Hikin_Jim]

Now I'm very confused.

I use Thok Mode (tm) because I'm very bad at putting what I mean into words (hence why I prefer to be quiet in person).

Well, it works for me, so I'll get rid of it since it appears it has no place here. Let's move on.

Well, just one man's opinion, but I good with it whenever Thok shows up.

You know, there are a whole lot of ways to do things. There are super ultra-lighters out there who carry a one pint bottle of water and a loin cloth, and there are "Be Prepared" types out there who carry multiple gallons and are prepared for radioactive fall out, biological warfare, and chemical attack. The ultra lighters think the "Be Prepared" types are nuts, and the "Be Prepared" types think the ultra lighters are nuts.

Risk assessment, proper technique, proper gear, etc. is a highly subjective, personal thing. There are routes a highly athletic person could go on without pro that I wouldn't consider going on even if top roped. I like the fact that people share what they do, but I'd like to think I give people space to make their own decisions. I carry a $450 PLB. Am I nuts for spending that kind of cash or is someone else nuts for being a tightwad and not getting one? I don't know that there's an obvious "hard and fast" answer out there. Like I say, it's a highly subjective issue, one with a lot of latitude for what constitutes adequate gear, prep, etc.

Let's give each other a little space here.

Of course, when in doubt, you should all do it my way.

HJ

[Taco]

I love you, Jim.

[Hikin_Jim]

Of course, when in doubt, you should all do it my way.

I love you, Jim.

Because of my superior gear recommendations?



HJ

[Taco]

Something like that.

On the topic of water filters, what's the most versatile model out there? I'm with Jim, I drink straight from what I know (or sometimes hope) is clean. The only thing I've used before is the MSR MIOX (purifier, not filter).

[Ze Hiker]

I carry a $450 PLB. Am I nuts for spending that kind of cash or is someone else nuts for being a tightwad and not getting one?

hey are you calling me a tightwad?!

[Ze Hiker]

FWIW, I've drank out of the east fork ~ Iron Fork and Dry Gulch and had no issues. I would consider both areas low on human use / flow ratio.

[mattmaxon]

On the topic of water filters, what's the most versatile model out there?

The gold standard is Katadyn

I have a Katadyn Pocket which has a 20 year warranty, built like a tank and weighs like one too. This has been relegated to my auto earth quake kit

I also have a Katadyn Camp which I use occasionally kinda a pain to set up but it beats pumping gallons of water

I've used a Katadyn Expedition many times on backcountry work projects

The one I use currently is a MSR Sweetwater I feel it is a good compromise between weight and cost. Certainly not the best but it works

On the subject of a "Houdini Kit" I do carry a rope from time to time if I feel there is a way way way outside chance I might need to rappel .

I generally use a 160ft 5.5mm Titan cord with a mini figure eight, 2 petzl attache beiners, and a harness I got from where I don't remember. I'll have 20ft or so of tubular webbing too.

Nothing magic about the length.. That was the length I could buy at the time

You can make knot chocks etc with the webbing , climbers might be a bit squeamish with some of the things canyoneers might do, but we're not taking a lead climbers fall on the anchor, we're just going down, and on a 5.5mm cord you'd better be doing it SLOWLY

[Hikin_Jim]

I carry a $450 PLB. Am I nuts for spending that kind of cash or is someone else nuts for being a tightwad and not getting one?

hey are you calling me a tightwad?!

No, but I am calling you Zébenezer Scrooge.

HJ

[Taco]

Thanks Matt.

I use canyoneering type anchors in climbing. Sometimes, it's the only thing that will work.

Added. (I still don't know how to make a word into a link)

[AW~]

waterfilter - dont know much about them....I carry the sports bottle one...I had a Katadyn($35 I think) and recently use a Bota 30oz($20). The Bota is inferior for sure overall compared, but I think I got it down as to how to use it properly. The Katadyn was just squeezing water and the Bota I have to create suction first before squeezing....otherwise the water just comes out the sides as well...both are quite durable.

As far as the East Fork, thats hard water right there. I dont know the concentration levels, but there be at least Iron in there, not something I want to drink. Now if we are talking Falling Springs or Cortelyou, I was thinking I need to fill some bottles for home....good stuff.

[Hikin_Jim]

In a survival situation a water borne illness could be fatal

Maybe. I'm not an epidemiologist, but most of the stuff that I've heard about that might be in our local waters takes a while before symptoms show. My planning horizon for wilderness emergencies is 72 hours (three days). I'm not aware of anything that is common that would take a person out in a three day time span. Again, I'm not an epidemiologist, so I could be wrong there. In fact, if you have some documentation regarding water borne illness other than Giardia, then I'd be most interested in seeing it. I'd much rather be well informed that "right".

Hi, Matt,

I don't suppose you had anything more regarding the above. I was up in the Sierra last week. Hope you didn't post info elsewhere and I just haven't caught up to it yet.

HJ

[MattCav]

I know I'm late to the party here, but I thought I might weigh in a little bit.

I really like the Katadyn Hiker Pro. It's lightweight, cheap, and time tested. I've got the old school one from when Katadyn was known as Pur. I also like the Katadyn MyBottle/Exstream, which is a sport bottle with a carbon filter in it. The old ones were tough to squeeze the water out of but the newer ones are a softer plastic. Its a cool filter for something like Bridge to Nowhere, though, like Ze, I've drank water from there prefiltered through a shirt and it was fine. I carry a coffee filter in my emergency kit for prefiltering if I'm ever in a semi emergency situation or just have that need.

Another thing I'm going to start doing is carrying my emergency kit in a pair of sock liners (using the liners as the bag, essentially). I've been in a few situations where blisters formed or I just wanted a cooler sock than a SmartWool or something. Seems like it might be a decent idea, for what its worth. Anyone ever do anything like that?

[Hikin_Jim]

+1 on socks. I've carried a pair of thin liner socks for a long time. Just in case I start getting hot spots or whatever. I carry a pair of "regular" socks in addition to the liner socks as well. Dry socks = win.

HJ