EISPIRATEN

HikeUp wrote:Same question with all the boundaries that follow trails or roads.

U.S. Forest Service launches inquiry into Station fire response
The agency scaled back its attack the night before the blaze, the biggest in Los Angeles County history, began to burn out of control.

By Paul Pringle

October 1, 2009
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The U.S. Forest Service has launched an internal inquiry into the agency's attack on the deadly Station fire, an operation that was scaled back the night before the blaze began to burn out of control.

"With the significant loss of life, and impacts to the local community, we must determine the effectiveness of our efforts," Forest Service Chief Thomas Tidwell said in a written statement Wednesday. Tidwell said he would ask other agencies to participate in the review.

But the Forest Service has declined to release detailed information about its response to the suspected arson fire, citing in part an ongoing homicide investigation by the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department into the deaths of two firefighters whose truck fell off a mountain road. Sheriff's spokesman Steve Whitmore said the department sent a letter Wednesday to fire officials asking that the material be withheld until detectives review it.

Neither Forest Service officials nor Whitmore would explain how the release of information on the deployment of firefighters and equipment might jeopardize the investigation. The firefighters were killed on the blaze's fifth day.

The Times reported this week that the Forest Service considered the fire nearly contained at the end of the first day, and thus prepared to go into mop-up mode the next morning with fewer ground crews and water-dropping helicopters, according to documents and interviews. After the story appeared, fire victims demanded an investigation.

The blaze, which broke out Aug. 26, destroyed about 90 homes and other buildings and blackened more than 160,000 acres of the Angeles National Forest. It is the largest fire in the county's recorded history.

Big Tujunga Canyon residents, many of whom lost homes to the fire, said they welcomed the Forest Service inquiry, but were skeptical that it would be as rigorous as an independent probe.

"Will we get the truth? I don't know," said Cindy Marie Pain, whose Stonyvale Road house burned down. She said she believed the Forest Service was withholding information on its tactics because "they look bad enough already."

Residents have accused the Los Angeles County Fire Department of not doing enough to keep the flames from the canyon community after the blaze spread from its starting point above La Cañada Flintridge. County officials have said the department did all it could without risking the lives of firefighters.

Meanwhile, Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Glendale), whose district borders the Angeles National Forest, said the Forest Service failed to address concerns that he and five other local members of Congress raised more than two years ago about the agency's firefighting capabilities.

In an August 2007 letter, the lawmakers cited reports of a "severe shortage of qualified supervisors" in the forest and complaints that many firefighters had quit because of low pay and management that "has not been responsive."

"We'll look at what the Forest Service investigation reveals and we'll see if a broader investigation needs to be done," Schiff said Wednesday. "It seems to me that this is a situation where you would want maximum transparency."

The Times reported that in the evening of the fire's first day, the Forest Service estimated that the blaze would be controlled by the following afternoon, with no loss of structures and minimal harm to the natural treasures of the San Gabriel Mountains. Overnight, as the 15-acre fire grew, the Forest Service realized its mistake and began to summon more equipment and crews.

On that fateful second day, the county department lent the Forest Service a heli-tanker but denied its request for another smaller chopper, according to documents and interviews.

Chief Deputy John Tripp, the department's No. 2 official, said he made that decision because he did not believe the fire was endangering neighborhoods, and because the county must keep some helicopters for other emergencies.

paul.pringle@latimes.com

HikeUp wrote:Same question with all the boundaries that follow trails or roads.

JoeTruth writes:As of Wednesday September 30th, Chantry, the Mt. Wilson toll road & Mt Lowe toll road are open (but only up to around the Idlehour trail). Chantry part of Angeles National Forest is open and you will not be ticketed. ...... The closure borders are very confusing so it's going to be interesting how they're going to mark it clearly or provide maps of closures. For instance, all of Winter Creek, Zion and The Gab is open but the Newcomb Pass Trail leading up to The Rim trail and Rincon Fire road is closed and off limits. The Merrill's up to Inspiration Point are open again but not beyond. Again, very confusing but at least we have that much to access"

Zé wrote:you're such a rebel. WWFOD?

HikeUp wrote:I can be very dense for most of my awake hours but I'm not sure wtf you're talking about AW - what am I missing?

I want the Forest Service to tell me in clear language whether I can walk on the trails and roads that form the boundary of the closure area. Seems like one should be able to do so, or at least walk 1 inch to the non-closure side of the trail /road. Anyway, what's tiresome about almost everything the Forest does is that it is almost always ambiguous at best. Very tiresome.

MtnMan wrote: move to the beach then.

otherwise use your noggin, do some fingerwork and call someone instead of whining.

I agree things can often be ambiguous with the USFS, and the people within the agency suck at communicating sometimes, but in their defense, things like this are not as simple as closing a ride at Disneyland.

MtnMan wrote:I agree about the piss-poor map, and the lame effort sometimes put forth on alot of things the USFS does. Like the pathetic thing called a website and information exhanging. It could (and should!) be so much better.

I also agree that your average person that answers the phone at some USFS offices is often clueless. However, that's why I gave some specific names of people that usually know what's going on, and actually get out there and do some of the same things many of us here love to do.

There are actually a few good, knowledgeable people that work for the Angeles. You just gotta know who they are, get in touch with them, and try not to rely on the stuff that is meant for the masses (which again, should still be better than it is).

cougarmagic wrote:I'm going up to Vincent Gap, and hopefully farther, tomorrow, so I'll let you all know what I find out. If there is anyone to ask, I specifically am going to find out about being able to walk or bike ACH beyond Islip Saddle.

MtnMan wrote: Next: The official Fire Closure area begins AT Islip Saddle, so you're not supposed to go any further west than that on road or trail. So no, Buckhorn is not accessible at all right now even though part of the closure boundary straddles Hwy 2. There was slopover from the fire near Cloudburst Summit.

Layne, what other info do you want about "boundaries/open highways/trails"? I have a hard time believing Mike M couldn't answer any of your questions. He's a pretty sharp guy.

HikeUp wrote:I can be very dense for most of my awake hours but I'm not sure wtf you're talking about AW - what am I missing?

I want the Forest Service to tell me in clear language whether I can walk on the trails and roads that form the boundary of the closure area. Seems like one should be able to do so, or at least walk 1 inch to the non-closure side of the trail /road. Anyway, what's tiresome about almost everything the Forest does is that it is almost always ambiguous at best. Very tiresome.

Zé wrote:

MtnMan wrote: move to the beach then.

otherwise use your noggin, do some fingerwork and call someone instead of whining.

I agree things can often be ambiguous with the USFS, and the people within the agency suck at communicating sometimes, but in their defense, things like this are not as simple as closing a ride at Disneyland.

i'm sorry but that is utter bullshit.

1) 7 times out of 10, I call them about something and they screw up. they respond with a FALSE statement. in these situations they are either lying, think they know but they don't, or know they don't know but pretend they do

2) 2 times out of 10 they actually say "i don't know"

3) 1 time out of 10 they actually are right (i.e. I called Mt Baldy visitor center and they confirmed Baldy Ski Lift was open but couldn't hike there)

so, no, "fingerwork" is practically useless. it's a damn shame too..

cougarmagic wrote: Layne - couldn't get near Buckhorn, but I hiked up from South Fork almost to Islip saddle, and it looks green, beautiful, with dark blue skies, fresh air and lots of life. I am sure Buckhorn is the same!! I expected to see ash on the leaves, but there was none. It was really good to see.