http://www.ridgenet.net/~rockwell/Giardia.pdf
http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/DerletWater.htm
http://www.publiclandsranching.org/html ... waters.PDF
http://www.highsierrahikers.org/Derlet- ... -2006.pdf
Articles on water filtering -- essential or unnecessary?
I used to carry a "Sierra Club" cup on my belt for years and would simply scoop up cupfuls of water right out of streams and lakes with no thought about it and no adverse affects. Then I read back in the early 70s an article in the now defunct climbing magazine "Summit" about a doctor and his wife that got the poops from water in the San Jacintos. Since he was one of those types of doctors that did that kind of stuff, he collected samples from, as I recall, 23 streams and springs and found 21 to be contaminated with various bio buggies.
His solution was to use resublimed iodine water treatment. That is, put about a quarter gram of the crystals in a little bottle, add some water and let a bit of the iodine dissolve till the water is saturated. Carefully add a certain amount of this saturated water to your canteen, shake it up, and then refill your little bottle with some of that water for your next canteen. You could use this over and over and over till the crystals were completely dissolved. Since the amount that dissolves to saturation was dependent on the water temperature, you needed to carry a thermometer to accurately determine the amount to add to your canteen.
I was able in those days to get the crystals from any pharmacy. Then a company came out with a product called "Polar Pure" that included a small bottle with a trap for the crystals and a thermometer affixed to the outside. As soon as I saw those I bought one cause the iodine always seemed to react with the washers in the cap of the bottle I had and then leak into my pack.
I'm not sure if you can still buy the Polar Pure system anymore. While I still worked at REI they took it off the selves cause drug dealers were using the iodine for some kind of drug making
. I like that system cause in the long run, it was a very economical way to treat water and from some of the sources I've read, more effective than chlorine and kills very small viruses.
Even with the iodine system, I would try to get water from the cleanest place in the stream or lake I could find. Once in the Sawtooths of Idaho, I walked out on a dead snag in a pristine alpine lake because strong winds were churning the water along the shore. As I was filling my water bottle out on the end of this tree about 30' from shore I saw a half decomposed dead porcupine on the bottom of the lake.
If I had not seen it I would have been happy to drink that water. As it was, I poured out the water and hiked to the stream feeding the lake for my water (perhaps a dead deer laying in the stream above somewhere out of sight?).
I've had some friends do no filtering or chemical treatment and never get sick but then I've had some that did. Guess it all depends what you scoop up in your bottle.
I still use the Polar Pure thing or a Katydin filter. I've heard something about a UV thing that purifies water that sounds interesting. Any comments?
His solution was to use resublimed iodine water treatment. That is, put about a quarter gram of the crystals in a little bottle, add some water and let a bit of the iodine dissolve till the water is saturated. Carefully add a certain amount of this saturated water to your canteen, shake it up, and then refill your little bottle with some of that water for your next canteen. You could use this over and over and over till the crystals were completely dissolved. Since the amount that dissolves to saturation was dependent on the water temperature, you needed to carry a thermometer to accurately determine the amount to add to your canteen.
I was able in those days to get the crystals from any pharmacy. Then a company came out with a product called "Polar Pure" that included a small bottle with a trap for the crystals and a thermometer affixed to the outside. As soon as I saw those I bought one cause the iodine always seemed to react with the washers in the cap of the bottle I had and then leak into my pack.
I'm not sure if you can still buy the Polar Pure system anymore. While I still worked at REI they took it off the selves cause drug dealers were using the iodine for some kind of drug making
. I like that system cause in the long run, it was a very economical way to treat water and from some of the sources I've read, more effective than chlorine and kills very small viruses.Even with the iodine system, I would try to get water from the cleanest place in the stream or lake I could find. Once in the Sawtooths of Idaho, I walked out on a dead snag in a pristine alpine lake because strong winds were churning the water along the shore. As I was filling my water bottle out on the end of this tree about 30' from shore I saw a half decomposed dead porcupine on the bottom of the lake.
If I had not seen it I would have been happy to drink that water. As it was, I poured out the water and hiked to the stream feeding the lake for my water (perhaps a dead deer laying in the stream above somewhere out of sight?).I've had some friends do no filtering or chemical treatment and never get sick but then I've had some that did. Guess it all depends what you scoop up in your bottle.
I still use the Polar Pure thing or a Katydin filter. I've heard something about a UV thing that purifies water that sounds interesting. Any comments?Just for "fun," I drank straight out of the creek at Alger Creek in the SGW last Friday. Filled my 2L Camelbak and drank it dry. No adverse affects.
I've read how the whole girardia scare started in the 80's. For those of us who remember, it seemed like overnight all of the water in N America suddenly developed girardia. Further research was done, and the water in N America, particularly in the West, has turned out to be pretty clean.
The conclusion that the pathogen was water borne (in the incident that triggered the girardia scare) was eventually proven wrong. The girardia was linked to fecal-oral transmission -- a girardia transmission means not known at the time. In other words, people didn't wash well after elimination, prepared food with poorly washed hands, and ingested the pathogen from the food -- not the water. Many now advocate hand washing as a critical way to prevent girardia. Turns out mom was right about washing up. Who knew?
One does have to be very careful about picking water sources. Upstream human activity or the presence of cattle usually presages poor water quality.
Still, it doesn't hurt to be safe, and, truth be told, I treat my water most of the time. Better safe than sorry, I guess. Treatment isn't that much trouble, and girardia is pretty nasty. I also am much more careful to wash my hands now-a-days, particularly after elimination.
As for treatments, Iodine is OK, and will definitely kill girardia, but you have to leave it in longer when the water is cold -- like the water in the high country of the Sierra Nevada. By the way, Iodine won't kill cryptosporidium, another common pathogen. Crypto isn't a problem locally, but if you travel elsewhere, you might check into alternate treatment methods. What works in the relatively clean waters of N America may not be the best in, say, Africa.
As for iodine, Potable Aqua tablets seem to be the most popular. A lot of people don't like the taste that iodine gives to water. Potable Aqua now sells a sort of "taste neutralizer" that one can put into the water after the iodine has had a chance to work. Potable Aqua has a limited shelf life even when unopened (3 years). Once opened, Potable Aqua is usually good for only a few months. Crystals, as in Polar Pure, have an indefinite shelf life. See http://www.polarequipment.com/ There are other chemical treatments (AquaMira, Miox, etc) available. This pdf on the AquaMira site has some information: http://www.aquamira.com/bpl_2_efficacy-of-water.pdf
The latest rage is these UV pens that one simply sticks into a bottle of water and presses a button. The UV sterilizes the water. Of course a UV pen is an electronic gadget and is subject to equipment failure and battery life just like all electronics. They're supposed to work pretty well. Incidently, the water on the surface of a lake is generally cleaner than running water in a stream. Counter-intuitive, yes, but the principle is the same as the UV steri-pens: UV light from the sun kills pathogens in the surface water. If one can collect water from the surface of a lake (without stirring up the water a great deal), the water is generally cleaner. Lakes down stream from major industrial sites excepted.
Way more than I was going to say, but there you have it.
HJ
PS Oh, and when all else fails you can always boil water. It's actually one of the most effective techniques. Hope you brought a lot of fuel.
I've read how the whole girardia scare started in the 80's. For those of us who remember, it seemed like overnight all of the water in N America suddenly developed girardia. Further research was done, and the water in N America, particularly in the West, has turned out to be pretty clean.
The conclusion that the pathogen was water borne (in the incident that triggered the girardia scare) was eventually proven wrong. The girardia was linked to fecal-oral transmission -- a girardia transmission means not known at the time. In other words, people didn't wash well after elimination, prepared food with poorly washed hands, and ingested the pathogen from the food -- not the water. Many now advocate hand washing as a critical way to prevent girardia. Turns out mom was right about washing up. Who knew?
One does have to be very careful about picking water sources. Upstream human activity or the presence of cattle usually presages poor water quality.
Still, it doesn't hurt to be safe, and, truth be told, I treat my water most of the time. Better safe than sorry, I guess. Treatment isn't that much trouble, and girardia is pretty nasty. I also am much more careful to wash my hands now-a-days, particularly after elimination.
As for treatments, Iodine is OK, and will definitely kill girardia, but you have to leave it in longer when the water is cold -- like the water in the high country of the Sierra Nevada. By the way, Iodine won't kill cryptosporidium, another common pathogen. Crypto isn't a problem locally, but if you travel elsewhere, you might check into alternate treatment methods. What works in the relatively clean waters of N America may not be the best in, say, Africa.
As for iodine, Potable Aqua tablets seem to be the most popular. A lot of people don't like the taste that iodine gives to water. Potable Aqua now sells a sort of "taste neutralizer" that one can put into the water after the iodine has had a chance to work. Potable Aqua has a limited shelf life even when unopened (3 years). Once opened, Potable Aqua is usually good for only a few months. Crystals, as in Polar Pure, have an indefinite shelf life. See http://www.polarequipment.com/ There are other chemical treatments (AquaMira, Miox, etc) available. This pdf on the AquaMira site has some information: http://www.aquamira.com/bpl_2_efficacy-of-water.pdf
The latest rage is these UV pens that one simply sticks into a bottle of water and presses a button. The UV sterilizes the water. Of course a UV pen is an electronic gadget and is subject to equipment failure and battery life just like all electronics. They're supposed to work pretty well. Incidently, the water on the surface of a lake is generally cleaner than running water in a stream. Counter-intuitive, yes, but the principle is the same as the UV steri-pens: UV light from the sun kills pathogens in the surface water. If one can collect water from the surface of a lake (without stirring up the water a great deal), the water is generally cleaner. Lakes down stream from major industrial sites excepted.
Way more than I was going to say, but there you have it.
HJ
PS Oh, and when all else fails you can always boil water. It's actually one of the most effective techniques. Hope you brought a lot of fuel.
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bertfivesix
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:29 pm
I usually pack a MIOX. It works great, though I'll admit I chose it mostly for the gadget factor. If the water has some bits in it, I'll pull out a coffee filter.
I'm heading to China for the Olympics and I'm hoping to get some hiking in, so by then I'm going to need something a little more robust to handle the heavy metals and pesticides...any suggestions?
I'm heading to China for the Olympics and I'm hoping to get some hiking in, so by then I'm going to need something a little more robust to handle the heavy metals and pesticides...any suggestions?
Oh, boy. Well, Miox won't work on heavy metals and pollutants. I won't pretend to be an expert on such things, but I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find something portable to deal with heavy metals and pollutants. Your best bet may be bottled water.
Sounds like a heck of a lot of fun, though. I've done some hiking in Korea and Japan. Very cool stuff.
HJ
Sounds like a heck of a lot of fun, though. I've done some hiking in Korea and Japan. Very cool stuff.
HJ
I had some friends use one of those UV devices (a Steripen) on a backpacking trip while I used my First Need purifier. None of them got sick so I suppose it works? I think it's a neat little, lightweight device for occasional use to kill microbes in clean water but it has a couple of disadvantages:Rick M wrote:I've heard something about a UV thing that purifies water that sounds interesting. Any comments?
1) It uses power
2) It requires a holding time
3) It won't filter large objects like sediment so you need to use a pre-filter
For backpacking where I might need to filter large amounts of water, it's just faster and less of a hassle to use my purifier.
Btw, Travis once got the double whammy of giardia and poison oak:
https://eispiraten.com/sutra2360.php
Hearing stories like that is enough to make me filter all my water. Even if the risk is low, I'd rather play it safe so my trip won't be ruined by getting sick.
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bertfivesix
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:29 pm
Yeah, I'll probably just limit it to dayhikes, and pack enough bottled water. Sealed bottled water. Imported sealed bottled water. Though I'm sure they've figured out how to counterfeit new looking bottles of Fiji or Evian.Hikin_Jim wrote:Oh, boy. Well, Miox won't work on heavy metals and pollutants. I won't pretend to be an expert on such things, but I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find something portable to deal with heavy metals and pollutants. Your best bet may be bottled water.
Sounds like a heck of a lot of fun, though. I've done some hiking in Korea and Japan. Very cool stuff.
HJ
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FIGHT ON
What's wrong with using the http://www.rei.com/product/695265 ? I thought it filtered all that stuff you guys have been talking about. Is it just too heavy?
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bertfivesix
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:29 pm
I'm sure there's a whole litany of contaminants present in Chinese groundwater that portable filters can't handle.
If it comes down to it, I'll just treat for particulates and biologicals, and hope that anything else will be in small enough quantities not to have any real effect. It's all cumulative, right?
If it comes down to it, I'll just treat for particulates and biologicals, and hope that anything else will be in small enough quantities not to have any real effect. It's all cumulative, right?
I'm a little skeptical about any claims regarding industrial pollutants, although the carbon filtering would definitely be helpful. Better than nothing I suppose.FIGHT ON wrote:What's wrong with using the http://www.rei.com/product/695265 ? I thought it filtered all that stuff you guys have been talking about. Is it just too heavy?
It'd be interesting to see just a bit more detail than, "removes ... industrial pollutants." "Industrial pollutants?" What is that? Organic compounds? Heavy metals? ??
Not trying to knock the filter; it's probably way more broad spectrum than the average filter. I'm just a little skeptical that it would get everything that the Chinese could throw at it from manufacturing. Would definitely be better for crypto than iodine tabs.
Actually it looks like a bit of overkill for around here. The carbon based filtering will remove some pesticides and industrial pollutants, but there aren't a lot of pesticides and industrial pollutants in the mountains in Calif. that I'm aware of. I don't think you need that level of purification hereabouts to make the water drinkable. With the higher level of purification come some drawbacks; that particular filter is slow compared to some others (.83L/min), less than one liter per minute. By comparison, the MSR Hyperflow http://www.rei.com/product/767564 is about 2.75L/min. If you read the reviews on the MiniWorks filter (the one you originally linked to), a lot of people have had problems with the MiniWorks. Something to think about.FIGHT ON wrote:Jim how do you like it for areas around here? I'm not going to China.
Were I going to do a lot of international stuff, I might want the higher purification level that the MiniWorks has, but locally, anything with a 0.2 micron absolute (not nominal) pore size is plenty. A 1 micron pore size is sufficient for giardia and crypto, the two protozoans mostly commonly worried about, and a 0.2 micron size will eliminate bacteria. Note that filtration is not effective against viruses. Viruses aren't a big issue in the water in N American wilderness areas, but if you did want to worry about them, you would filter first, and then chemically treat the water.
Giardia seems to be the buzz word that has everyone running to treat their water, but the chance of contracting giardia in Calif. wilderness areas is fairly low: http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/Giardia.htm However, if you do want to treat your water, here's an article from Oregon State discussing water treatment vis a vis giardia and crypto: http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalo ... ec/ec1431/ The Oregon State article takes the "assume all water is contaminated" approach which I don't agree with, but it's advice on treatment is sound.
HJ
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FIGHT ON
wow. Thatswhatimtalkinabout! When did that one come out? I got that mini works last year like in april for my Whitney hike from rei. They had a water display with that pump in it and a full time sales person showing everyone how it works. So I got it. It is hard to pump and slow. It actually broke when I tried to get water just below the switchbacks on the way down. WE HAD NO WATER! I was so pissed. Had to beg for filtered water from others. This one is twice as light and twice as fast at least. Costs more though. Wonder how the filter is cleaned? and how often that has to happen?
Thanks Jim for the info.
Thanks Jim for the info.
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brian90620
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:34 pm
Does anyone happen to know how effective boiling water is for getting rid of giardia and cryptosporidium? I was reading a brochure I picked up at a ranger station, that a good way to ensure that water that comes from spings, streams, etc is safe to drink, is to bring the water to a rolling boil for at least 5 minutes. I think Im just being really parinoid but is this really effective 
, I really don't want to get sick from drinking water from open sources. The reason I ask is because yesterday I filled up a couple of water bottles at the piped spring in Round Valley (San Jacinto's) and boiled it when I got home because I was curious to taste the mountian spring water .................Any input anyone can give me will be greatly appreciated..........Thanks
, I really don't want to get sick from drinking water from open sources. The reason I ask is because yesterday I filled up a couple of water bottles at the piped spring in Round Valley (San Jacinto's) and boiled it when I got home because I was curious to taste the mountian spring water .................Any input anyone can give me will be greatly appreciated..........Thanks
i use a filter on water thats stagnant or where theres lots of people like the east/west forks of san.g river..........when im up in the high country
i drink it without filter......to be honest....i have never once gotten sick
or even a stomach ache.......when im hot and thirsty and i happen upon
some cold sweet mounatin water and i drop down to drink like an animal
i find myself very happy........
i drink it without filter......to be honest....i have never once gotten sick
or even a stomach ache.......when im hot and thirsty and i happen upon
some cold sweet mounatin water and i drop down to drink like an animal
i find myself very happy........
Boiling is the most effective water treatment for bacterial and viral pathogens. Boiling kills frickin' everything. Boiling will not remove heavy metals, pesticides, industrial pollutants, etc.brian90620 wrote:Does anyone happen to know how effective boiling water is for getting rid of giardia and cryptosporidium? I was reading a brochure I picked up at a ranger station, that a good way to ensure that water that comes from spings, streams, etc is safe to drink, is to bring the water to a rolling boil for at least 5 minutes. I think Im just being really parinoid but is this really effective
Boiling has a couple of drawbacks:
1. Weight. You have to carry extra fuel (heavy) in order to boil the water. You also have to carry a pot and a stove.
2. Time. It takes time to set up the stove, heat the water to boiling, and then hold the boil for 5 minutes.
3. Heat. You now have really hot water. It's 95F in the shade. You drink the water. [insert puking noise here] 'Nuf said.
Most people carry a filter or some type of chemical treatment. Note that iodine is not considered effective against cryptosporidium (and it tastes nasty and smells even worse).
Of course, many people don't treat at all in remote areas or when drinking water directly from a spring. The water in N. America is generally clean and safe despite the dire warnings that the USFS puts out. The USFS warnings are there so they won't get sued not because the water has pathogens. Ya gotta "drink smart" if you choose to go without treatment; see friendowl's comments.
We just returned from a week in the Mammoth area where we did some great hiking. You probably won't get sick from the high country H2O but I warned a lady who was filling her water bottles straight from the San Joaquin River near Rainbow Falls. She couldn't believe that it might be contaminated.friendowl wrote:i use a filter on water thats stagnant or where theres lots of people like the east/west forks of san.g river..........when im up in the high country
i drink it without filter......to be honest....i have never once gotten sick
or even a stomach ache.......when im hot and thirsty and i happen upon
some cold sweet mounatin water and i drop down to drink like an animal
i find myself very happy........
There were so many people along the river area there that I thought I was at the San Gabriel River on Labor Day...
I just got back from three days in the Cottonwood Lakes area of the eastern Sierra. While I am happy to drink directly from streams and springs in the San Gorgonio Wilderness, and most of the San Gabes, I insisted on borrowing a filter for the water in the Sierras. There are stock animals roaming around all over up there.
I drank filtered lake water from one of the Cottonwood Lakes. It tasted very good.
I drank filtered lake water from one of the Cottonwood Lakes. It tasted very good.
Nunc est bibendum
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JMunaretto
- Posts: 370
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:03 am
FWIW, when my son and I thru-hiked the John Muir Trail in 2006, we did not filter water. On a related note, we never carried more than 1 liter each except for the slog up Whitney, for which we carried an extra liter each. There is a lot of good clean water in the Sierra.
Last month I took a boyscout troop backpacking to Glen Trail Camp along the westfork San Gabriel river. The 1st day my new Miniworks worked flawlessly. Second day we had terrible time to filter 8 liters of water with 2 MSR Miniwork filters. They both clogged. Glad to hear others on REI product reviews have similar problem. Good thing is that after cleaning the ceramic filter element, the Miniwork works fine again. This makes me concern when plan to use this water filter for long trip.FIGHT ON wrote:What's wrong with using the http://www.rei.com/product/695265 ? I thought it filtered all that stuff you guys have been talking about. Is it just too heavy?
I'm one of those guys that usually carries 170 to 220 ounces of water when I hike. Most of my favorite hiking spots are bone dry." I do carry Polar Pure "just in case," but I haven't used it yet.
Cloudy water contains organic material that iodine attaches to, which reduces its ability to kill diarhea causing "critters." The best and most effective method is to filter, then treat your water with Iodine.
Something to ponder when you are deep in a remote canyon, think of all the "bathers" at the headwaters.
Cloudy water contains organic material that iodine attaches to, which reduces its ability to kill diarhea causing "critters." The best and most effective method is to filter, then treat your water with Iodine.
Something to ponder when you are deep in a remote canyon, think of all the "bathers" at the headwaters.
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FIGHT ON
Ya, I'm one of those guys too. I carry over 10 liters on my hikes. I don't carry a filter because I'm all about carrying what ever it takes. Bathers? What about Terry??Kit Fox wrote:I'm one of those guys that usually carries 170 to 220 ounces of water when I hike. Most of my favorite hiking spots are bone dry." I do carry Polar Pure "just in case," but I haven't used it yet.
Cloudy water contains organic material that iodine attaches to, which reduces its ability to kill diarhea causing "critters." The best and most effective method is to filter, then treat your water with Iodine.
Something to ponder when you are deep in a remote canyon, think of all the "bathers" at the headwaters.
You know he is up there somewhere!!! It would not be hard to clean in the field, but the cleaning must be done with some trusted clean water. So either clean the filter element with previous filter water, or boil water, or raw water with few drops of bleach.Hikin_Jim wrote:Is it difficult to clean them in the field?
The water at Glenn Camp Trail is clean since there is almost no water activities before the Cogswell Dam. But the water is low at this time of the year and there are lots of dark particles from decayed vegetation, and those cause the filter element clogged.
Hanh
Hey, Simonov, where did you stay in the Cottonwood area? Any good 411 for me on where to camp and all. I'm thinking of going up there over Labor Day, camping at one of the lakes, and then going up the unmaintained trail up Army Pass.simonov wrote:I just got back from three days in the Cottonwood Lakes area of the eastern Sierra. While I am happy to drink directly from streams and springs in the San Gorgonio Wilderness, and most of the San Gabes, I insisted on borrowing a filter for the water in the Sierras. There are stock animals roaming around all over up there.
I drank filtered lake water from one of the Cottonwood Lakes. It tasted very good.
To veer off topic for a moment, that's just what we did. Hiked in to Cottonwood Lakes, then up Army Pass to Mt Langely, then back out again after another night at Cottonwood Lakes. Elevations were kind of wild. It was as if we started at the top of Mt Baldy (Horseshoe Meadows is at 10,000 feet) and continued up. We camped at 11,000 feet, Army Pass is at 12,000 feet (first time I had ever been that high, I think), and My Langley is just over 14,000 feet.Hikin_Jim wrote:Hey, Simonov, where did you stay in the Cottonwood area? Any good 411 for me on where to camp and all. I'm thinking of going up there over Labor Day, camping at one of the lakes, and then going up the unmaintained trail up Army Pass.
The world above 11,000 feet is more barren and desolate than any part of the California desert. All I saw were these tiny plants that clung to the ground and dozens of marmots. Those marmots looked big and fat and I can't imagine what they are living on. I took a lot of photos with my film camera, but something was wrong with the light meter and none of them came out.
We stayed on this little wooded rise between Lake 3 and 4 (on the tops; some maps, including, I think, Tom Harrison, mis-number the lakes, and I might have them wrong, I'm going from memory). Our camping spot was A on this map, but there's a nice spot up by B, closer to the waterfall.
Army Pass is a pretty good trail, considering it's unmaintained and doesn't appear on the maps. On the other hand, we found the ducks very useful in finding our way up Langley. I'm glad Halhiker wasn't up there knocking them down.
Nunc est bibendum
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FIGHT ON
I figured your light meter would go bad so I followed you guys up and took a few.
Isn't Hal a peach!
