Help get rid of the Adventure Pass!

[Rob]

. . . . Gangbangers who grafitti all the rocks with gang signs written in Spanish.

Last month between Baldy ski lift and Manker Flat, I noticed a rock spray-painted "Welcome to Mexico." That irritated me.

I've literally seen 50 vehicles parked in no-parking areas, without Adventure Passes.

Occasionally I forget to put my Adventure Pass on my dashboard and as a result find a USFS courtesy ticket on my car when I return from my hike (and have to grovel per USFS procedure within 14 days). They've caught me with 100% effectiveness. I wonder if they follow-up on violators.

[Kit Fox]

I'm the last person to encourage inceased govt. encroachment on my life.

I think we'd all like to see increased government enroachment on the lives of people who ruin the wilderness. Or the cities, for that matter.

Stopping short of law enforcement / immigration background checks, I know of no effective method to keep troublemakers out of the National Forests, and designated wilderness areas.


The best areas always require maximum effort to find them. The only problem is you have to leave your vehicle in the area frequented by dirtbags, to reach the nice areas.

[Taco]

Call me a bit insensitive...

Taco, you heard the man. Right underneath his user name and above his avatar. If he had one.

Sold!

[Hikin_Jim]

FTW!!!

[FIGHT ON]

Call me a bit insensitive...

Taco, you heard the man. Right underneath his user name and above his avatar. If he had one.

LOL

[FIGHT ON]

Call me a bit insensitive, but I would much rather we go through a check point before entering National Forest Land. To gain access, you would need to provide proof of U.S. citizenship, or proof that you pay taxes in the U.S.

Illegals would be denied access, and so would people who collect welfare.

This should reduce the amount of grafitti, and diapers found along all the creeks, and rivers.

I like the check point before entering the National Forest.
If you are concerned about the illegals just don't hire them.

Dudes still got the best signature! "The Mountains are the means, the man is the end; the idea is to improve the man, not to reach the top of the mountain."

[FIGHT ON]

Stopping short of law enforcement / immigration background checks, I know of no effective method to keep troublemakers out of the National Forests, and designated wilderness areas.


The best areas always require maximum effort to find them. The only problem is you have to leave your vehicle in the area frequented by dirtbags, to reach the nice areas.

Yep, You never gonna stop all of em. Could put surveillance cameras everywhere but that would offend someone. Could put rangers all over the place but that would bother someone too. Could make it real expensive to get in but that would bother someone too. No matter what you do someone is going to complain. So you just have to live with it. And go to the areas that are physically hard to get to. Less bad people go to those areas.

[Rick Kent]

Adventure Pass sucks. I think they had to cut down about 3 whole trees for all the damn tickets I've received. The rangers don't do anything anymore other than spend all day writing tickets. That's just not right. That's not what a ranger's job should be. Most Calif counties don't have an Adventure Pass. Why is it necessary for LA counties? If appropriate funds haven't been allocated in the first place then that problem should be corrected. Spread across the population the amounts we're talking about are minimal. For example, the NPS budget of about 2.4 billion spread out over 300 million Americans is about $8 per person. I for one certainly wouldn't mind chipping in an extra buck or two but $80 for a National Parks Pass and another $30 for an Adventure Pass and then another $15 or $20 for certain state parks??? That's too much!

[muddeer]

I for one certainly wouldn't mind chipping in an extra buck or two but $80 for a National Parks Pass and another $30 for an Adventure Pass and then another $15 or $20 for certain state parks???

Unless they changed the rule within the last year, a National Parks Pass also works as an Adventure Pass.

edit: according to the Forest Service website, this is still true.

[FIGHT ON]

The only solution is to close down all the roads into the parks. And only allow people in who can beat Rick Kent!

[AlanK]

Thie is the Wikipedia article on the Adventure Pass.

The National Forest Adventure Pass is a parking permit issued by the United States Forest Service that permits bearers in the four National Forests in Southern California to park their cars for the purpose of recreation. Though it was introduced during the "Recreation Fee Demonstration Program" (Fee-Demo) which ended on November 21, 2004, the Forest Service continues to administer the program, nearly unchanged, under the auspices of the "Federal Lands and Recreation Enhancement Act". This act, derisively dubbed by some as the "Recreation Access Tax" (RAT), was passed in December 2004 as part of the Omnibus Appropriations Bill.

* Angeles National Forest
* Cleveland National Forest
* Los Padres National Forest
* San Bernardino National Forest

It is the local element of the controversial national Recreational Fee Demonstration Program system that imposes fees on the public to use public lands. Proponents say that local forests need more funding and that user fees put the costs on those who use the facilities. Critics note that the Adventure Pass was promoted by a coalition of companies, including amusement park owners, who would benefit indirectly from the money expended and the loss of a free source of recreation. Critics also note that private lumber companies receive large subsidies from the same Forest Service. Critics further state that most of the money generated has gone for staff hired to enforce the requirement, producing little surplus for local projects.

The Legislative Counsel of California has determined that the National Forest Service may not cite cars for parking on state highways within national forests unless there is evidence that the occupants have used the forest for recreational purposes (for example, the occupants have been observed entering the forest). The National Forest Service invites those who feel they have been cited unjustly to write to an address on the citation to appeal. This determination was made after several incidents occurred where property owners were cited for parking on their own property, in communities completely contained in the San Bernardino National Forest.

Passes may be purchased for annual or day use online or from visitor centers and local merchants. Currently, the fee for a day pass is $5, and the fee for a yearly pass $30. Violators usually receive a "Notice of Noncompliance" and may clear the notice by purchasing a pass after the violation. Punishment of noncompliant individuals has been rare. In theory, use of the forests for non-recreational, First Amendment purposes does not require an Adventure Pass. In addition, using the restroom, stretching, or taking a picture is not a violation.

After passage of the Recreational Enhancement Act in 2004, Adventure Passes are now only required at designated "High Impact Recreational Areas". However, in fact most areas that previously required a parking pass still require one. To avoid a fine, a wise hiker will telephone a Forest Service office to determine in advance his or her permit needs, since adequate signage pertaining to the need for an Adventure Pass is not yet common. Although supposedly many areas do not require the pass, most of these locations are less convenient to populated areas and can be accessed only from areas that do require a pass.

I thought that the article was educational, but does not get deeply into the controversy. For that, see Web pages such as the following: http://www.edibleplants.com/advpas.htm

[Tim]

I have one of those $80 "America the Beautiful" passes, also called the Interagency Visitor Pass. It does work for the NPs and the Adventure Pass. But it's no bargain. The National Park pass use to cost $50 and the Adventure Pass is $30 so no savings there. But they got rid of the National Park Pass so you're forced to buy the $80 pass even if only want to go to the National Parks.

I do feel bad for the NPS and FS. Their combined budget is about $6.4 billion. That's less than 0.25% of the government's revenue of $2.6 TRILLION last year. Yes, less than 1/4th of a percent!! Not 1%, not even 0.5%, only 0.25%! It's amazing that we as a nation can't set aside enough money to maintain and protect some our country's most valuable national resources. Yet at the same time the government has no problem losing 3X that amount in "unreconciled transactions," pork belly projects and other government waste every year.

The RAT also spawned other forest fees in other areas like the Cascades. Like Rick said, the only time you usually see an FS ranger is when they're writing tickets. It's all about fees and enforcement now, instead of sharing and educating about the forest. Sorry if I sound corny, but it's just not right.

[FIGHT ON]

I do feel bad for the NPS and FS. Their combined budget is about $6.4 billion. That's less than 0.25% of the government's revenue of $2.6 TRILLION last year. Yes, less than 1/4th of a percent!! Not 1%, not even 0.5%, only 0.25%! It's amazing that we as a nation can't set aside enough money to maintain and protect some our country's most valuable national resources. Yet at the same time the government has no problem losing 3X that amount in "unreconciled transactions," pork belly projects and other government waste every year.

If all this is true it sure sounds sick.
I've been trying to think what I would do but have no idea.
What is the best way to manage all this and satisfy the most and keep the wilderness natural?
All I see are complaints.
What would you do if you could do anything you wanted to with the trillions?
What is the best way?

[Tim]

It is true. Check out this report from the General Accounting Office:

The Federal Government's Financial Health: A Citizen's Guide to the 2007 Financial Report of the U.S. Government (PDF, 8 pages)

As citizens the only power we have is to vote and to complain. If no one complains, nothing will change.

Look at some sample 2007 budgets:
Department of Defense: $665 billion
Social Security: $625 billion
Medicare and Medicaid: $556 billion

So for example, the DOD spends over $1.8 billion per day. That's over $75 million per hour!! I know we need to defend our country (I'm pro-military) but it has to be reasonable. A lot of this money is spent on defense contracts. I think that is way too much money. And this is coming from someone who actually works in the aerospace/defense industry. I worked on the Comanche helicopter program, which went on for over a decade and then they just cancelled the whole thing! I wouldn't mind if they cut back because it would force my company to pursue more commercial programs.

The social security and medicare programs are also broke. This is the biggest problem. Projected long-term costs are much greater than the resources available to pay for them. The coming surge in entitlement spending will end in a fiscal train wreck that will have an adverse effect on the U.S. economy and on virtually every American.

The Medicare program pays as much as eight times the cost that other federal agencies pay for the same drugs and medical supplies. Isn't that crazy?

We need reforms. I don't know how exactly since it's not my expertise but clearly there is a problem and we need a change. The government is on an unsustainable fiscal path.

[AW~]

Well as it happens, I dont think I'll be alive when all this stuff hits the fan and the next generation gets stuck with the blow back. I dont think we are going to learn until we are begging in the street like in the great depression. We live in a country were life is treated so close to meaningless, to expect any kind of enivornmental protection is asking alot. And given the current state, I think the next generation will sell out whatever can sell....wait till gasoline is $20 a gallon and a trip to the ER cost $5000.

The current state is so bad I think most people are already in shock. BTW, gasoline has already reached $20 a gallon and the madness previewed just like Katrina...at some point the decision will be made just to rape whatever land is available for whatever reason.

Thats why I say see it before its gone or unavailable or altered.

[AlanK]

This is getting pretty depressing (which is not to say wrong). One way to eliminate the problems with government screwups is to turn everythig over to the vaunted private sector. I'm sure that the geniuses that ran/run successful operations like Enron, Adelphia, or Countrywide, to name only a few, could set things straight pronto!

[FIGHT ON]

Again, not that I have a solution but I don't hear any from anyone else either.
Lay it out. Without a complaint. How would you run it so it would work so you would not have a complaint?
Seriously. Anyone can complain. Don't suck into that. That's the easy way out. WHAT IS THE SOLUTION? HOW MUCH MONEY WOULD IT TAKE. HOW MANY PEOPLE? WHERE? WHAT DO THEY DO? EVERYTHING AND DON'T LEAVE ANYTHING OUT.
And keep in mind that when you are done, nobody will have a complaint.

[FIGHT ON]

I GOT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS'LL DO IT.
IT MAY NOT SOLVE ANYTHING OR DO ANYTHING BUT
AT LEAST IT WILL PROVE TO EVERYONE HOW MUCH I CARE.
GONNA MAKE A BUMPER STICKER THAT SAYS, "ADVENTURE PASS IS NOT THE ANSWER" 8)

[Tim]

The solution is simple: spend less than the country takes in. Save and pay off the debt.

Sorry I have no specifics other than that. Analyzing a multi-trillion dollar operation would require...oh, I don't know, expertise and hundreds of auditors?

Nah, a single average citizen could do it! Just give him/her a super powerful HP calculator with Reverse Polish Notation. He/she should have a fully detailed solution with nothing missing and it better be here yesterday. If they don't, they ought to shut up and don't complain. Complaining is bad. Very, very bad. Better to just stick your head in the sand. It's even worst than total economic collapse of the United States. So we choose total economic collapse! Hurray!!

*****

Wait a minute! Stop the presses! I have a specific solution with nothing left out!

How about we stop sending $250 million to Ireland to fund children's shows, ice cream stores and hotels and instead send that money to our National Forests.

$14,878,000 added by the House for the International Fund for Ireland (IFI). IFI, established in 1986, is an organization whose objectives are to promote economic and social advance and to encourage contact, dialogue and reconciliation between nationalists and unionists throughout Ireland. Despite the fact that peace has broken out in Ireland and the Irish economy is the strongest in Europe, U.S. taxpayers continue to fund Sesame Workshop, a shorter Northern Ireland version of Sesame Street; Ben & Jerry’s; a “conference to highlight development opportunities for chefs;” and two three-star hotels, one of which is no longer in business. CAGW has identified $249.6 million for this project since 1995.

There's $17 billion more worth of pork belly we could be cutting. Is that specific enough?

[FIGHT ON]

The solution is simple: spend less than the country takes in. Save and pay off the debt.

Sorry I have no specifics other than that. Analyzing a multi-trillion dollar operation would require...oh, I don't know, expertise and hundreds of auditors?

Nah, a single average citizen could do it! Just give him/her a super powerful HP calculator with Reverse Polish Notation. He/she should have a fully detailed solution with nothing missing and it better be here yesterday. If they don't, they ought to shut up and don't complain. Complaining is bad. Very, very bad. Better to just stick your head in the sand. It's even worst than total economic collapse of the United States. So we choose total economic collapse! Hurray!!

*****

Wait a minute! Stop the presses! I have a specific solution with nothing left out!

How about we stop sending $250 million to Ireland to fund children's shows, ice cream stores and hotels and instead send that money to our National Forests.

$14,878,000 added by the House for the International Fund for Ireland (IFI). IFI, established in 1986, is an organization whose objectives are to promote economic and social advance and to encourage contact, dialogue and reconciliation between nationalists and unionists throughout Ireland. Despite the fact that peace has broken out in Ireland and the Irish economy is the strongest in Europe, U.S. taxpayers continue to fund Sesame Workshop, a shorter Northern Ireland version of Sesame Street; Ben & Jerry’s; a “conference to highlight development opportunities for chefs;” and two three-star hotels, one of which is no longer in business. CAGW has identified $249.6 million for this project since 1995.

There's $17 billion more worth of pork belly we could be cutting. Is that specific enough?

So are you saying that if they got rid of the adventure pass and all the other fees to enter the areas you would be happy? That would do it?

[AW~]

Fight On,

What I would do is

Federal level:
1) Decentralize all non-NPs into state owned areas.
2) Remove as many restrictions as required. Land could be subject to a federal audit, but accountability should be vested in the voters, not the BLM.
3) Fund each state per acre basic maintainence& illegal activity.

State level once that happens(should be paid state level through taxes):

Substantially reduce fire-fighting services . Exempt state&federal from lawsuits over fires. Fire protection to be reduced to the point where only lives really can be saved. Of course, individuals and cities can step up and pay for more fire protection if they want it. But no more hazard fuel reduction, 10 airplanes, etc.

Substanially increase road services. Guard rail where appropiate, getting roads reopened, etc.

Increased law enforcement

Increase collaborative efforts by civilian oversight. What Im thinking here is that civilians can change the business plan of the forest after its laid out. Things like one line-item veto and the right to get one item on the plan for each trade group. Thereby, if groups wanted to take a hard line nothing would change(and the non-collaboratives would lose).