Lost Hiker-Los Padres Tar Creek

Post by **Uncle Rico** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:39 pm

Autopsy results.

http://www.sgvtribune.com/general-news/ ... roner-says

Augie · Post by **Augie** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:40 pm

High drama in the wilderness. I'm sure the guy's employer, the Arcadia Fire Dept., is anxiously awaiting the coroner's toxicology report.

Post by **tekewin** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:58 pm

Thanks for the link, Rico.

Seems like some facts are still missing from the public account, but we may never know.

mchiker · Post by **mchiker** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:16 pm

Hi everyone. New to the forum. Was referred to the site by a member's post from another forum. By background I grew up in the Simi Valley/Moorpark area and have been hiking in the Sespe several times, but really only as far as Tar Creek. Grew up on a ranch in rural Moorpark (1970's) next to miles of open space, foothills and fruit orchards. Was once a paramedic as well albeit over 20 years ago.

I have a (probably extreme) curiosity in some matters when the situation catches my interest.

Since this story made the headlines, I used info from the various commentary, stories and google maps I found what I am pretty sure is the location where they found his body.

First I am not 100% on this, but I believe these are the general coordinates of their campsite near Stone Corral Creek given the image of a search map I saw (just copy and paste in google maps): (34.555977, -118.943540).

Given that location I believe this to be the location where they found Mike's body given the direction of travel, distance and topography shown in the pictures and the description of the cliff (34.540700, -118.950135).

If I am correct, he didn't necessarily climb "up" the cliff as it would have been possible to reach it over land instead of from the creek bottom, but even WITH boots and in clear daylight that trek would have probably taken at least 1 hr? Without shoes in the dark? Even if you were chasing your dog, no one in their right mind would go that far under those conditions. At least I wouldn't.

I am simply providing my opinion and information (hopefully accurate) here to discuss the story and perhaps provide more clarity to exactly what might have happened.

Photos for reference:

Top Photo
http://www.sgvtribune.com/general-news/ ... roner-says

Second photo down
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1847257

Update: Yep, definitely found it if the photos show by the press were accurate. I managed to nest in a position on Google maps/earth that gave the perfect angle of the topo/features of that cliff in the background. Attached a screen shot (excuse my daughters smiley face!)

Teejate · Post by **Teejate** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:35 pm

mchiker wrote: ↑Hi everyone. New to the forum. Was referred to the site by a member's post from another forum.

Good stuff mchiker.
Thanks and welcome.
(And I'm in your camp in terms of the plausibility).

mchiker · Post by **mchiker** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:17 pm

Teejate wrote: ↑
David Stillman wrote: ↑I know somebody who spoke with one of the Ventury County Sheriffs Deputies who was involved in the the recovery. This is second hand, but the source is solid, he said that the Deputy told him that they do not suspect foul play, and that Herdman was high as a kite. Autopsy is being performed today by the Ventura County Medical Examiner. -DS
That's interesting. But I gotta' say, even if he was blasted out of his mind it still doesn't explain it for me. The lack of boots, no headlamp, and that steep of a climb in that terrain? And not one vocal communication with your partner? Just get up and disappear?

If someone was high enough to forget to put on his boots, (which wouldn't happen) he'd be too high to make that climb. And he was wearing board shorts? Really?

They went out with the 'no foul play' really early on and reiterated it in the presser. Something tells me they might come back to it and explore some other theories. When I read that the buddy said he thought Herdman might have decided to walk back to the car my red flag went up.

Maybe the autopsy will reveal something that will answer some questions.

I don't want to say I speak from experience (but I am...from a looonngg time ago

) but at least from my perspective, when one is UTI of a hallucinogen like LSD or shrooms you can tend to feel god-like, larger than life, maybe even impervious to pain....almost animal like sometimes too. Not to digress too much, but I believe some of the Viking clans used to take hallucinogens before going into battle. Point is, you tends to feel 10 ft. tall and bulletproof. I have heard that meth has a similar effect at times. Anyway, drug use would go a long way to explaining why Herdman might have done something a little crazy like go off on a night hike in bare feet if we aren't considering foul play.

mchiker · Post by **mchiker** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:32 pm

@teejate thanks. Great to be here.

VermillionPearlGirl · Post by **VermillionPearlGirl** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:26 pm

There are lots of reasons why you'd go to the top of a mountain and fall down it, but chasing after a dog doesn't seem to be one of them. It truly seems unreasonable that he would have gone that far after a dog that is quite likely to come back on its own. This really is a strange and suspicious case.

I hike in the dark often, and have hiked in bare feet several times, so I have a broader definition of what can be done in those conditions than most of the people in this thread -- but I agree he doesn't seem to have a reasonable motivation to do such a thing. So while I do believe he definitely could have gotten to the top of the mountain in those circumstances, I just really don't understand why he'd want to.

mchiker · Post by **mchiker** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:34 am

VermillionPearlGirl wrote: ↑There are lots of reasons why you'd go to the top of a mountain and fall down it, but chasing after a dog doesn't seem to be one of them. It truly seems unreasonable that he would have gone that far after a dog that is quite likely to come back on its own. This really is a strange and suspicious case.

I hike in the dark often, and have hiked in bare feet several times, so I have a broader definition of what can be done in those conditions than most of the people in this thread -- but I agree he doesn't seem to have a reasonable motivation to do such a thing. So while I do believe he definitely could have gotten to the top of the mountain in those circumstances, I just really don't understand why he'd want to.

I definitely wasn't singling out the barefoot night hiker crowd

, definitely nothing wrong with that if that is what you are into. I have done both as well, even did some barefoot trail running, although now I would probably be considered a tenderfoot. My feet are not conditioned to go barefoot hiking anymore sadly.

Keeping it in context, in his situation? Just a foolhardy thing to do. Trying to put myself in his "shoes", I might have gone after our dog Charlie (if I brought him with me on an overnight trip, which is doubtful), but in doing so, my attitude would have been "stupid dog" if he ran off and I would have begrudgingly put on my boots, grabbed a flashlight, water and hiking staff and then try to persuade my friend into going with.....if I was sober or even slightly inebriated. Otherwise all bets are off since I don't do much more than the occasional beer or adult beverage now.

Has anyone ever been camping or hiking in that particular area of the Sespe around Stone Corral Creek? Would be interesting to know how accessible that west bank is.

mchiker · Post by **mchiker** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:30 pm

I don't have much time today (Happy 4th everyone!) but i want to fire up this discussion later. I keep kicking this tragedy around in my head. Just thinking about what is logical and makes sense, I keep coming back to "this was not an accident", especially given some other information I came across over the last several hours. I have a friend in Fillmore who I might see today who might know more, but my overwhelming sense is this situation is dirty. Something bad happened to Herdman and another person had to be involved.

tracker · Post by **tracker** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:04 pm

If a logical person was to look for a common thread in the responses, they would see a strong consensus:
The facts as being reported do not add up. Period.
Speculating as to which factoids being reported are true, vs. which is complete BS- is meaningless.
G-I-G-O. (Garbage In, Garbage out)
The guy is dead. His body was found up the Sespe, under circumstances that seem to beg more detail. That much I'll believe. Will the public get the true details to draw an accurate account of events that caused this unfortunate death? I doubt it.

mchiker · Post by **mchiker** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:50 pm

tracker wrote: ↑If a logical person was to look for a common thread in the responses, they would see a strong consensus:
The facts as being reported do not add up. Period.
Speculating as to which factoids being reported are true, vs. which is complete BS- is meaningless.
G-I-G-O. (Garbage In, Garbage out)
The guy is dead. His body was found up the Sespe, under circumstances that seem to beg more detail. That much I'll believe. Will the public get the true details to draw an accurate account of events that caused this unfortunate death? I doubt it.

In the end you are right. Just because of the nature of this case real information in hard to come by. My friend from Fillmore told me that the case is still being treated as suspicious, but is being handled carefully, but even if the coworker is a POI it sounds like there is probably no hard evidence to go on. But we don't know what's truly going on behind the scenes. There was a rumor about the discovery of an illegal grow field that turned up during the search for Herdman but the search area was 58 sq miles. Even if the rumor was true we can't be sure if it was discovered in close proximity to where the fire fighters were camping. So in the end we may never know how it actually went down but it's fun to try and sort things out. I mean they tried to conceal the location of where the body was recovered but I figured it out by reading between the lines. If they give us enough facts no telling what we can find out.

lu · Post by lu » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:11 pm

No, the reported facts don't add up, do they?

As to the pot grow, I don't think it was just a rumor; it was reported by a number of sources (http://www.vcstar.com/news/local-news/f ... r_53813872). Nor do I think it had anything to do with what happened.

Post by **HikeUp** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:20 pm

Why is that two people have chosen this forum to join to discuss this incident?

lu · Post by lu » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:08 pm

HikeUp wrote: ↑Why is that two people have chosen this forum to join to discuss this incident?

Sorry to upset you. Can't see a way to delete my posts, or I would. Since the thread was about this incident, I thought it was okay. I won't post any more.

mchiker · Post by **mchiker** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:11 pm

HikeUp wrote: ↑Why is that two people have chosen this forum to join to discuss this incident?

Suspicious of the suspicious. And the demon emoticon is just a LITTLE over the top! Kind of takes paranoia to the next level lol. Not that I need to explain, but I guess I will. What actually happened was another one of your members was posting on a different thread, l LA times I think and he/she said there was a quality thread about this matter in this forum. Lots of details and enlightened minds. I do also happen to enjoy hiking and camping so it was a nice find.

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:32 pm

HikeUp is teasing. He's a kidder, that one.

Post by **HikeUp** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:56 pm

Yeah, sorry...my bad.

mchiker · Post by **mchiker** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:34 am

Ehhhh no worries. I can see how you might think lu and I were "plants" or just plain weirdos. Can't help my curiosity. The case just fascinates me. I live at the base of the Santa Susana Mountains. From our house to the summit of the first Hills is about 1000 ft. Very rugged terrain but not near as bad as the Sespe and I would never imagine climbing to the top barefoot, especially at night.

My interest is deinitely fading though. Too busy at work and with life.

mchiker · Post by **mchiker** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:34 pm

Rethinking this whole thing now. Maybe I was wrong....our home is nestled right up against the Santa Susana Mountains, probably about half way up the first set of hills. Tonight the moon was somewhere a little better than 3/4 full. The hills behind my home are pretty similar in terrain, rate of rise and distance to peak to that area where they found Herdman. Was walking my dog, no ambient light other than the moon, but there was good visibility. Just on a whim I decided to break from my usual route along a perimeter road and scramble up a long boulder platform, probably tilted 30-40 deg angle and 100+ yards long.....barefoot. It wasn't bad actually. I did have a flashlight and shoes (which I took off), but once I got a feel for the terrain didn't need the flashlight. I could see most everything. I got to the edge of the boulder(probably a 30-40 foot drop) and looked up the mountain to the peak. I could totally see how someone who was out in the wild, just "feeling it" might try some stupid @#$%, especially if you fancied yourself as one of these extreme athletes. So the whole "unbelievable" aspect of this mystery sort of became more possible to me. Frankly, I still can't fathom how someone would try to scale that cliff. I think the overland route looked easier (at least on google maps), but regardless of how it happened, to me Taylor Byar's story becomes more plausible. Maybe Herdman was just too good of an athlete and he got himself into a situation that he couldn't get out of and paid the price. Whatever happened RIP and God Bless his family. Truly a tragedy.

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:45 pm

tracker wrote: ↑If a logical person was to look for a common thread in the responses, they would see a strong consensus:
The facts as being reported do not add up. Period.
Speculating as to which factoids being reported are true, vs. which is complete BS- is meaningless.
G-I-G-O. (Garbage In, Garbage out)
The guy is dead. His body was found up the Sespe, under circumstances that seem to beg more detail. That much I'll believe. Will the public get the true details to draw an accurate account of events that caused this unfortunate death? I doubt it.

Then why read this thread? Is it a desire to control those around you? Do you not believe in brainstorming or corroboration? Many discoveries are made by examining known facts and filling in the unknowns with probable details? This is also the basis for circumstantial evidence cases in court.

bsmith · Post by **bsmith** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:02 am

the toxicology report is back.

http://www.vcstar.com/news/local-news/a ... s_35037387

Post by **Uncle Rico** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:33 am

the toxicology report is back.

I'm shocked I tell ya. Shocked.

DavidCrashStillman · Post by **DavidCrashStillman** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:43 am

Tox Report: Ecstacy, Alcohol, Caffeine and amphetamine. Sounds fun...until you die.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-m ... story.html

tracker · Post by **tracker** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:14 am

It makes a lot more sense now.

Post by **tekewin** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:02 am

Drugs and the forest don't mix. A really bad trip.

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:06 am

bsmith wrote: ↑the toxicology report is back.

Well dam, that is so sad.

DavidCrashStillman · Post by **DavidCrashStillman** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:29 am

Why is it sad (unless that was sarcasm)? The guy was a husband and a father and what he chose to do was stupid and irresponsible and not representative of the ideals of his profession. He was an idiot, and now he's a dead idiot. These little "tragedies" make the world go 'round.

I suppose it's sad that his child lost her father, but in the context of the larger universe, people die of stupid all the time. One day his child will learn the truth about why her father died. Will she feel sad, or just angry? -DS

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:19 am

DavidCrashStillman wrote: ↑Why is it sad (unless that was sarcasm)? The guy was a husband and a father and what he chose to do was stupid and irresponsible and not representative of the ideals of his profession. He was an idiot, and now he's a dead idiot. These little "tragedies" make the world go 'round.

I suppose it's sad that his child lost her father, but in the context of the larger universe, people die of stupid all the time. One day his child will learn the truth about why her father died. Will she feel sad, or just angry? -DS

No sarcasm, (usual for me) and albeit harsh, I agree with your points.

Potentially sad that he chose to piss his life away, especially since he was a husband and a parent. Once you are a parent it about the kids not yourself, don't agree, don't have kids.

Potentially sad if he didn't have life insurance.

OTOH, there is the potential for the Mother to meet and marry a better man and for his daughter to have a better/less flawed father.

VermillionPearlGirl · Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:40 am

When did backpacking into the forest not become enough stimulation on its own?

Also, when I was in college, I feel like we learned that if you were going to do drugs like (or drink a lot) that you should be in a controlled environment. With people looking out for you, in case anything happened. Not the complete opposite of that...