Lost Hiker-Los Padres Tar Creek

tracker · Post by **tracker** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:00 pm

This reminds me of the LASD deputy that went for a day hike in Devil's Punchbowl a few years ago, and was never heard from again. Just saying....
The facts being released don't add up, which could mean a lot of different things. My screen name begs me to join the armchair quarterbacks: A barefoot man should not be that hard to find.

VermillionPearlGirl · Post by **VermillionPearlGirl** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:41 pm

I've hiked barefoot and I've seen many other barefoot hikers in the Angeles. I don't think it makes you especially incapacitated or suddenly unable to hike properly. If anything, you are often more cautious.

I do agree though, if something happened to him while he was chasing the dog, it probably would have happened pretty close to the campsite, because how far or how long are you going to go (shoes or not)?

Also, all dogs are different and getting into dog psychology is dangerous territory, but if he had found the dog, it's odd the dog would not have stayed with him, but seemingly would have headed back toward the car. So again, how far would he have gone without finding the dog? Wouldn't you go back to camp assuming the dog is most likely to return there?

And we don't have all the details, but why did his friend become separated from him? If he's running with no shoes on, and not an experienced barefoot runner, how fast is he going?

It's all very confusing.

(It reminded me a little bit -- Los Padres, lost dogs and bad decisions -- of this trip report: http://modernhiker.com/2007/01/17/backp ... ija-creek/)

Post by **HikeUp** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:33 pm

VermillionPearlGirl wrote: ↑(It reminded me a little bit -- Los Padres, lost dogs and bad decisions -- of this trip report: http://modernhiker.com/2007/01/17/backp ... ija-creek/)

Frankly, I'll never understand how Modern Hiker got famous doing a hiking blog that documents the numerous times he gets lost and makes navigation and other types of errors. Points to the fact that "experience" doesn't mean squat if that is the kind of experience you are referring to.

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:15 pm

It's his extensive knowledge of high end gear that must endear him to his readers.

HJ

Post by **HikeUp** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:02 am

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:25 pm

DavidCrashStillman - do you remember that Mike Herdman asked you about this route on your blog? (in the comments section)

http://davidstillman.blogspot.com/2012/ ... e-lot.html

Any more correspondence with him that would give anyone some clues as to experience, route intent, etc?

DavidCrashStillman · Post by **DavidCrashStillman** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:59 am

CougarMagic,
Nope, had no idea that he'd contacted me at some point in the past. The nature of his question indicated a distinct lack of experience and a general knowledge deficit regarding the outdoors. His question was:

"Hey David...ive spent the last hour reading about your adventures...I ran into the sespe two years ago and have done the doughflat tar creek partial loop twice.
Your descripts of finding peaks intrigues me...when youve got some time please fill me in on gear and type of expertise needed to give it a go.
I typically hike on trails...in the sierras, now sespe, and san Rafael wilderness. ..the bush wacking sounds fun just not sure on my picking a course, and keeping myself on track.
My name is mike herdman please feel free to FB message me with your suggestions
Thanks...keep up the cool blogs"

My reply was:

"Mike, that's a helluva lot to get into and I'm not offering guide services. Why don't you mail me your three most immediate concerns and I'll see what I can do to help you out. -DS"

I do recall that my first reaction to reading his question was a snort, and I believe I muttered "tenderfoot" under my breath. He did put me on the spot though. I felt that if I started a conversation with him about the nuances of feeling comfortable outdoors, opening that door would just lead to million more questions. I thought long and hard about the kindest way to reply to his query without seeming like an elitist snob. He never contacted me again, at least that I know of. -DS

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:08 am

DavidCrashStillman wrote: ↑I felt that if I started a conversation with him about the nuances of feeling comfortable outdoors, opening that door would just lead to million more questions.

I get it, I've been in that situation.

tracker · Post by **tracker** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:21 pm

Now that his body has been found it all makes even less sense.

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:33 pm

"Herdman was found 1,200 feet above and 3/4 of a mile away from Sespe Creek, where he was last seen, Sheriff Geoff Dean said. Searchers had ruled out looking in that area because it seemed unlikely that anyone would “scale a 1,200-foot mountain” in the dark, Dean said.

“It’s very very rugged terrain,” he said. “We didn’t go that far up.”

The body was spotted during a helicopter flyover Friday morning and was transported out and identified via dental records by a county medical examiner, Dean said.

“Nobody but Mike is ever going to know … why he would take off in the dark into this terrain,” Dean said.
"

(KTLA report, via the press conference this aftrnoon)

VermillionPearlGirl · Post by **VermillionPearlGirl** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:48 pm

1200 ft gain in 3/4 of a mile? Um... that's steep.

And they just found him on top of a mountain? I wonder what he died of? On top of a mountain doesn't sound like a fall...

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:15 pm

The discovery of Herdman’s body in a “rugged cliff area” was announced at a Ventura County Sheriff’s Office news conference about 4 p.m. Friday at Camarillo Airport.

They was no indication of foul play and it was not known if Herdman had fallen, Sheriff Geoff Dean said.

Herdman was found partially covered by brush below a cliff in a location 1,200 feet above and three-quarters of a mile away from the spot on Sespe Creek where he was last seen, Dean said.

“It was obviously a long hike up very, very difficult terrain,” Dean said.

Searchers had ruled out looking in that area on foot because it seemed unlikely Herdman would have ventured that far up in elevation, Dean said.

“What are the chances that someone at night in bare feet and shorts would scale a 1,200-foot mountain?” Dean said. “The likelihood just wasn’t that high, so the search was focused in areas that there was a higher likelihood that he might be located.”
Sheriff Geoff Dean points to photos of the location where Mike Herdman's body was found June 27, 2014. (Credit: KTLA)

Sheriff Geoff Dean points to photos of the location where Mike Herdman’s body was found June 27, 2014. (Credit: KTLA)

The body was spotted during a helicopter flyover Friday morning and was transported out after a challenging retrieval effort and identified via dental records by a county medical examiner, Dean said. The area had been searched aerially before.

“Nobody but Mike is ever going to know … why he would take off in the dark into this terrain,” Dean said.

Herdman’s family was notified after the body was identified, Dean said.

The cause of his death was undetermined; the medical examiner planned to do an autopsy, said Dean, who would not comment specifically on the condition of Herdman’s body.

The search for Herdman began June 16 and involved multiple agencies, with up to 75 people searching every day during the peak effort, authorities said. Helicopters and drones were also used in the search.
Searchers were trying to find firefighter Mike Herdman deep within the Los Padres National Forest on June 17, 2014. (Credit: KTLA)

Searchers were trying to find firefighter Mike Herdman deep within the Los Padres National Forest on June 17, 2014. (Credit: KTLA)

At least four searchers were injured, including an assistant fire chief sent to intensive care with a rattlesnake bite.

Rescuers found only Herdman’s footprints and backpack.

On Sunday, Duke was found hungry and dehydrated at Dough Flat, where the hike began, some 10 to 12 miles from camp.

“That critical time, that time where we believe he is still alive, has gone by,” sheriff’s Capt. Don Aguilar said Monday, according to the Pasadena Star-News. “It’s tough to survive out there past a week. We’ve given a good push on this and covered a lot of area and haven’t come up with much at all.”

The search was scaled back in recent days, but a group from Herdman’s Arcadia firefighters’ union searched on foot in the mountains above Fillmore, the union stated on its Facebook page.
Family photos show Mike Herdman with his wife and their daughter. He went missing June 13, 2014, during a camping trip in a remote area of the Sespe Wilderness.

Family photos show Mike Herdman with his wife and their daughter. He went missing June 13, 2014, during a camping trip in a remote area of the Sespe Wilderness.

Four people were on the ground Thursday, Aguilar told the Pasadena Star-News, saying efforts would continue Friday.

A seven-year veteran of the Arcadia Fire Department, Herdman is survived by a wife and young daughter. He lived in Dana Point, according to the Sheriff’s Office.

He was on a four-day backpacking trip with Byars when he disappeared. Friends said he was very physically fit and has extensive backcountry experience.

Would the fact that he was covered with brush indicate a possible cougar attack?

http://ktla.com/2014/06/27/mike-herdman ... ody-found/

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:29 pm

Gene wrote: ↑ Would the fact that he was covered with brush indicate a possible cougar attack?

http://ktla.com/2014/06/27/mike-herdman ... ody-found/

No, the fact that he was high up on a mountain covered in brush would explain that he was covered with brush. No way an animal is going to drag something that high.

I think they may have been hiking off trail and the barefoot dog-chase story is just a story.

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:39 pm

cougarmagic wrote: ↑
Gene wrote: ↑ Would the fact that he was covered with brush indicate a possible cougar attack?

http://ktla.com/2014/06/27/mike-herdman ... ody-found/
No, the fact that he was high up on a mountain covered in brush would explain that he was covered with brush. No way an animal is going to drag something that high.

I think they may have been hiking off trail and the barefoot dog-chase story is just a story.

Exactly why I asked the question.

Could an animal have discovered the body after a fall and hid it for later? If not, then who/what covered the body?

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:44 pm

Even in a stretch of imagination where an animal found the body and hid in brush - still would have to explain why he was way up there.

In one example, a mtn lion captured in OC about a year ago was taken in by the Exotic Feline Breeding Compound in Rosamond. They said he ("Serrano") was not willing to eat anything but raw venison or rabbit at first, and that they used that behavior to figure out when cats were captive vs wild. Wild cats, like domestic cats, are very finicky. They aren't scavengers, they are predators. Bears? I don't know. But again, nothing goes to the effort of dragging something up that far.

Regardless, I have hiked steep routes off trail in the San Gabriels and Los Padres and assert that no one does 1200' up, barefoot, much less in the dark. Those of you who have climbed Iron can sympathize. Something else happened.

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:29 pm

Thank you very much. I hate to think of foul play, but there have been many things about this story that did not add up. It doesn't eliminate the possibility of an accident, but there are a lot of difficult details that point in another direction.

cougarmagic wrote: ↑Even in a stretch of imagination where an animal found the body and hid in brush - still would have to explain why he was way up there.

In one example, a mtn lion captured in OC about a year ago was taken in by the Exotic Feline Breeding Compound in Rosamond. They said he ("Serrano") was not willing to eat anything but raw venison or rabbit at first, and that they used that behavior to figure out when cats were captive vs wild. Wild cats, like domestic cats, are very finicky. They aren't scavengers, they are predators. Bears? I don't know. But again, nothing goes to the effort of dragging something up that far.

Regardless, I have hiked steep routes off trail in the San Gabriels and Los Padres and assert that no one does 1200' up, barefoot, much less in the dark. Those of you who have climbed Iron can sympathize. Something else happened.

David R · Post by **David R** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:43 pm

Some observations from the comments:

1. I think you need to be careful into reading too much into the verbiage used to describe the situation. Doing that allows you to go on to tangents that are assumptions not fact. When they say "covered in brush" it doesn't mean that someone purposely concealed the body instead it simply means from my reading that the body was in the brush.

2. It seems like experienced hikers need to find a reason why the hiker screwed up or are not as an experienced hiker as their reputation. There is an obsessive need to find a reason for why it went wrong with THEM as opposed to the way WE hike. Granted running off barefoot isn't a very smart move but I think we all are one accident and one mistake away from being in a similar situation to this poor guy. The difference between reading a story on this website as a gnarly trip and it becoming a serious matter is a pretty fine line. I think we all know those idiot moments where we laugh and shake it off like it wasn't a big deal but really it was. Face it that's part of the thrill of hiking for most of us.

3. Finally I find it interesting how certain things simply can't be according to certain posters. Actually they can, I have no problem accepting that a hiker delusional with lack of water and exposure climbed up the side of a bluff for no apparent reason and expired in this effort. When you're in that state you don't behave rationally and things that for us seem unexplainable are clearly possible.

Mike P · Post by **Mike P** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:37 pm

David R wrote: ↑Some observations from the comments:

1. I think you need to be careful into reading too much into the verbiage used to describe the situation. Doing that allows you to go on to tangents that are assumptions not fact. When they say "covered in brush" it doesn't mean that someone purposely concealed the body instead it simply means from my reading that the body was in the brush.

I agree...

David R wrote: ↑2. It seems like experienced hikers need to find a reason why the hiker screwed up or are not as an experienced hiker as their reputation. There is an obsessive need to find a reason for why it went wrong with THEM as opposed to the way WE hike. Granted running off barefoot isn't a very smart move but I think we all are one accident and one mistake away from being in a similar situation to this poor guy. The difference between reading a story on this website as a gnarly trip and it becoming a serious matter is a pretty fine line. I think we all know those idiot moments where we laugh and shake it off like it wasn't a big deal but really it was. Face it that's part of the thrill of hiking for most of us.

Fair enough...

David R wrote: ↑3. Finally I find it interesting how certain things simply can't be according to certain posters. Actually they can, I have no problem accepting that a hiker delusional with lack of water and exposure climbed up the side of a bluff for no apparent reason and expired in this effort. When you're in that state you don't behave rationally and things that for us seem unexplainable are clearly possible.

I look at it as a matter of plausibility. What you suggest is certainly "clearly possible" but it seems highly implausible.

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:14 pm

That why it's called 'supposition' or supposing that this or that happened. At this point the only thing any of us knows is what we have read or been told by the authorities close to the situation. We also know there is just one soul that knows exactly what happened.

I agree, people typically put things in their frame of reference, including their personal experience. Experience or not, we all have different comfort levels for any particular situation.

I am not a highly experienced hiker, a handful of backpacking trips into the San Gabriels, many of day hikes and about 9 years of living and working in the San Gabriel mountains. During those 9 years as a dam operator I made countless trips over San Gabriel Dam alone. Usually in pitch darkness and pouring down rain. Up and down a dirt road, walking on a muddy switchback trail, getting into a boat, paddling out to take a water level measurement.

Between those trips we tended boom logs, boats and boat houses as the lake levels would rise and fall. I climbed all over the outlet works making flow adjustments and outflow readings.

I wasn't barefoot, but the rain suit and rubber boots I was wearing were not conducive to swimming. It was dangerous as heck, but we knew the danger and that help, if it came, would likely be the next day. We had crappy low bid carbon zinc batteries in equally crummy flashlights.

We worked according to our situation and surroundings, call it experience or common sense, I don't think it's unique to experienced hikers any more than it would be to a fireman. When a tragedy like this happens it is a good time to review our own practices and see if there is something we can do better.

Post by **tekewin** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:26 am

I work with a local police force and every detective I spoke with off the record thinks there was foul play, likely with someone's wife/girlfriend involved.

The bare feet is the thing I can't get over. Every step in rough off trail travel, on sticks, rocks, thorny bushes, your feet would scream at you. And every step you decide to go further up, in the dark? I would expect his feet to be bloody and very scratched up. I am not accusing anyone, I'm just having trouble constructing a scenario in my mind that fits the evidence. The coroner will have the final say.

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:25 pm

I could see Herdman scrambling something he couldnt reverse.
Or he was afraid of reversing.
We saw that with Cendoya&Jack, the orange county pair.
An inclination to think that the side of the mountain will top out soon or its easier to be seen or see something yourself.

I dont think his partner went vey far to look for him.
Im not blaming him,because 3/4 of a mile is a long way.
Without whistles too.

Not sure about the next day....but whatever.

David Stillman · Post by **David Stillman** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:13 am

I know somebody who spoke with one of the Ventury County Sheriffs Deputies who was involved in the the recovery. This is second hand, but the source is solid, he said that the Deputy told him that they do not suspect foul play, and that Herdman was high as a kite. Autopsy is being performed today by the Ventura County Medical Examiner. -DS

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:29 am

David Stillman wrote: ↑I know somebody who spoke with one of the Ventury County Sheriffs Deputies who was involved in the the recovery. This is second hand, but the source is solid, he said that the Deputy told him that they do not suspect foul play, and that Herdman was high as a kite. Autopsy is being performed today by the Ventura County Medical Examiner. -DS

Oh my, well that would explain a lot. The final location, the, 'no foul play suspected' and lack/strange information. I'm guessing the survivor told them more than we heard. A voice in the back of my head said, "Mushrooms or something that made him go wild?" but I discounted that because of his work.

Teejate · Post by **Teejate** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:09 pm

David Stillman wrote: ↑I know somebody who spoke with one of the Ventury County Sheriffs Deputies who was involved in the the recovery. This is second hand, but the source is solid, he said that the Deputy told him that they do not suspect foul play, and that Herdman was high as a kite. Autopsy is being performed today by the Ventura County Medical Examiner. -DS

That's interesting. But I gotta' say, even if he was blasted out of his mind it still doesn't explain it for me. The lack of boots, no headlamp, and that steep of a climb in that terrain? And not one vocal communication with your partner? Just get up and disappear?

If someone was high enough to forget to put on his boots, (which wouldn't happen) he'd be too high to make that climb. And he was wearing board shorts? Really?

They went out with the 'no foul play' really early on and reiterated it in the presser. Something tells me they might come back to it and explore some other theories. When I read that the buddy said he thought Herdman might have decided to walk back to the car my red flag went up.

Maybe the autopsy will reveal something that will answer some questions.

Post by **Uncle Rico** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:37 am

David Stillman wrote: ↑I know somebody who spoke with one of the Ventury County Sheriffs Deputies who was involved in the the recovery. This is second hand, but the source is solid, he said that the Deputy told him that they do not suspect foul play, and that Herdman was high as a kite. -DS

The autopsy will tell, but I find it interesting that there has been virtually no suggestion or even hint in the media reports that I have seen that drug use may have been a factor. Meanwhile, conjecture on the interwebs has suggested foul play by the friend or the involvement of illegal Mexicans growing weed, but not drugs. Meanwhile, the very vocal contingent that is always wailing and gnashing their teeth about charging the lost soul (or his or her estate as the case may be) for the cost of the search and rescue operation has also been unusually quiet. In most other circumstances, the missing hiker(s) wouldn't get that kind of pass (or the benefit of the doubt) from the masses. Why do you suppose that is so? Is it because the guy was a fireman and therefore automatically considered above reproach? Curious.

DavidCrashStillman · Post by **DavidCrashStillman** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:06 am

Hey Rico,
I alluded to the disparity between what you or I could expect (in terms of SAR response/resources) versus what this guy got, simply by dint of him being a firefighter. You raise a valid point. Media coverage of this event has been geared toward not making this guy look like an idiot. For those that can read tea leafs, Herdman did that well enough on his own. The insular nature of the EMS field has probably been working hard on keeping the press from expressing criticism of his choices.

On a different note, I'm getting kind of tired of the black helicopter crowd, those looking to turn this into something more sensational than it is. I've certainly been guilty of getting well off the deck in search of a kind view while looped on shrooms. I'm not saying with any certainty that this is the case here, especially in light of the runaway dog angle, but I can see that happening. A word of old-timer advice for you youngsters out there, never ditch your fry buddy. -DS

Post by **HikeUp** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:54 am

The dog ran off with their shrooms.

Sewellymon · Post by **Sewellymon** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:53 pm

DavidCrashStillman wrote: ↑Hey Rico,
A word of old-timer advice for you youngsters out there, never ditch your fry buddy. -DS

Good advice, David.

I was thinking a hearty dose of meth, topped off with dehydration and sun exposure be one explanation.

DavidCrashStillman · Post by **DavidCrashStillman** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:10 pm

Absolutely could have been the case. Have had two guys die of meth OD at my hospital just this week. One, a 28 year old and died of a massive heart attack, and the other, 32 years old, died of cerebral edema (brain swelling). That's some bad shit. When you've seen what it does to people first hand you quickly learn to despise the stuff and the people who use it. Honestly, junkies are easier to deal with than tweekers. -DS

yobtaf · Post by **yobtaf** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:06 am

Fear and loathing in Los Padres

The Bats