Baldy summit vandalism

Post by **HikeUp** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:58 am

Taco wrote: ↑HikeUp for Prez 2014!

Heh, my slogan will be HikeUp Yours!

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:35 am

I can play either way...already Ive been suspected of wanting to start snapping bolts off canyoneering routes

. Next we remove all rubbish- such as hiking registers, trail signs, gates, benches,toilets,etc. Then move onto the ultimate scars such as highways and national security sites like dams and telecommunications. Then finally we reintroduce grizzlies and restore the natural resources back....why stop with the San Gabriels though? Next, we rid the entire planet of anything less than LNT. All paid for by the soaking and strangling of the rich.

Post by **Taco** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:00 pm

Dude if you de-bolted all the canyons, only people with solid anchor-skills would make it!

(dude go for it!)

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:41 pm

Whitney Portal Store Message Board Baldy thread

This is a long thread, but recent posts include discussion of the Baldy summit vandalism. Also rebuilding.

Post by **HikeUp** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:12 am

In that thread you linked to Alan they are saying that the windbreaks were re-built then torn down again.

I feel sorry for the rocks.

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:40 am

HikeUp wrote: ↑In that thread you linked to Alan they are saying that the windbreaks were re-built then torn down again.

I feel sorry for the rocks.

Yes, it looks like the rocks are cannon fodder in a battle of wills.

I guess it's time to fire at Will!

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:29 am

FWIW, the shelters looked OK when I was there a couple of weeks before Thanksgiving.

Personally, I don't find the shelters obtrusive, and I think it's kind of a shame that people are tearing them down.

Sounds like we're in a "pissing contest" as we used to call it in the Army. One person tears down, another puts it back up, and so on. Very productive.

HJ

Post by **HikeUp** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:02 am

And if I ever make it back up there, I'll bring a jacket so it won't matter if the wind breaks are there are not.

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:58 pm

HikeUp wrote: ↑And if I ever make it back up there, I'll bring a jacket so it won't matter if the wind breaks are there are not.

On a practical note, my coldest, windiest visits to the Baldy summit are always at times when the shelters are filled with snow. So the jacket does come in handy.

Post by **HikeUp** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:30 pm

True. Pragmatism triumphs over hyperbolic handwringing about a pile of rocks. Go figure.

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:49 pm

HikeUp wrote: ↑True. Pragmatism triumphs over hyperbolic handwringing about a pile of rocks. Go figure.

Although hyperbolic handwringing can keep your hands warm if you forget to pack gloves.

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:09 am

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought I was going to be happy. My first impression was that someone was going to be commenting on the vandalism on the mountain of building wind shelters on the summit.

Much to my surprise... it was complaints about damaging the wind shelters that shouldn't be there in the first place.

Leave No Trace means just that. Leave no trace that you were ever there. Dont build wind shelters unless your life depends on it, don't spraypaint on trees, don't dam up streams, just dont...

I personally don't like to see nature any other way than the way nature intended me to see it.

Whoever knocked down the wind shelter is probably not the type of person you would find spray painting the side of a building. Maybe it is just someone tired of seeing the local mountains abused.

My thought is... if you need a wind shelter then bring one with you or build one when you get there. Then take it home with you or put things back the way you found it when you leave. LNT

(Climbing down off the soapbox)

Ze Hiker · Post by **Ze Hiker** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:15 am

Sure, but you're all right taking a paved road in your emission-spewing vehicle right up to the point where nature "starts", for you, eh?

Well nature starts for me a little bit further down the road, so excuse me if I remove your car from the parking lot while your hiking. And blow up the road.

How about taking useful sayings such as "Leave No Trace" as guidelines to common sense application? Seriously if a bunch of rocks stacked up bothers you, I'd suggest other more remote peaks are more to your liking.

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:23 am

Zé wrote: ↑Sure, but you're all right taking a paved road in your emission-spewing vehicle right up to the point where nature "starts", for you, eh?

Well nature starts for me a little bit further down the road, so excuse me if I remove your car from the parking lot while your hiking. And blow up the road.

How about taking useful sayings such as "Leave No Trace" as guidelines to common sense application? Seriously if a bunch of rocks stacked up bothers you, I'd suggest other more remote peaks are more to your liking.

I guess it is all about where you want to draw the line.

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:00 pm

Logan wrote: ↑When I first saw the title of this thread I thought I was going to be happy. My first impression was that someone was going to be commenting on the vandalism on the mountain of building wind shelters on the summit.

Much to my surprise... it was complaints about damaging the wind shelters that shouldn't be there in the first place.

Leave No Trace means just that. Leave no trace that you were ever there. Dont build wind shelters unless your life depends on it, don't spraypaint on trees, don't dam up streams, just dont...

I personally don't like to see nature any other way than the way nature intended me to see it.

Whoever knocked down the wind shelter is probably not the type of person you would find spray painting the side of a building. Maybe it is just someone tired of seeing the local mountains abused.

My thought is... if you need a wind shelter then bring one with you or build one when you get there. Then take it home with you or put things back the way you found it when you leave. LNT

(Climbing down off the soapbox)

LNT is a great ideal. Or practice. So, you are right in saying that the shelters should not have been built in the first place.

But it is not "leaving no trace" when one converts a wind shelter to an obnoxious, and decidedly unnatural, pile of rocks. It's more like "my trace is better than yours." Which it isn't.

mcphersonm80 · Post by **mcphersonm80** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:15 pm

AlanK wrote: ↑ LNT is a great ideal. Or practice. So, you are right in saying that the shelters should not have been built in the first place.

But it is not "leaving no trace" when one converts a wind shelter to an obnoxious, and decidedly unnatural, pile of rocks. It's more like "my trace is better than yours." Which it isn't.

I agree... whoever tore it down should have tossed the rocks down into Fish Fork, or better yet, hauled them back down to the Bowl where presumably they originated.

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:49 pm

mcphersonm80 wrote: ↑
AlanK wrote: ↑ LNT is a great ideal. Or practice. So, you are right in saying that the shelters should not have been built in the first place.

But it is not "leaving no trace" when one converts a wind shelter to an obnoxious, and decidedly unnatural, pile of rocks. It's more like "my trace is better than yours." Which it isn't.
I agree... whoever tore it down should have tossed the rocks down into Fish Fork, or better yet, hauled them back down to the Bowl where presumably they originated.

Is that before or after they eliminate the ski lifts, the lodge and associated buildings, the parking lot, the service road, and, of course, the Sierra Club Ski Hut?

mcphersonm80 · Post by **mcphersonm80** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:34 pm

AlanK wrote: ↑Is that before or after they eliminate the ski lifts, the lodge and associated buildings, the parking lot, the service road, and, of course, the Sierra Club Ski Hut?

Sounds good to me.

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:55 pm

mcphersonm80 wrote: ↑
AlanK wrote: ↑Is that before or after they eliminate the ski lifts, the lodge and associated buildings, the parking lot, the service road, and, of course, the Sierra Club Ski Hut?
Sounds good to me.

I'll take that as an "after" because carrying those large rocks down the bowl will be tiring.

tpfishnfool · Post by **tpfishnfool** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:38 pm

We are in so cal urban sprawl,,,,, Yal.... Welcome to the Jungle..

everyday · Post by **everyday** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:36 pm

You guys who like the LNT (as much as is possible anyway) should move here, or someplace similar ...where even someone picking up and trying to take a pine cone, or moving anything at all without permission, is a Federal offense and enforced. Even just TEMPING animals will get tourist a 500 dollar ticket ( thats for leaving food in your car where a bear can see it. YOU, get busted for being ignorant....which I personally think is awesome!) anyway, if you dont like yer environment, move. thats what I do. Its no use fighting against the citys sprawl and its citizens. its best just to relocate, not waste your life railing against it.
Moving , first to the grand canyon, then here to Yosemite has been the best thing i ever did for my mental and emotional peace and happiness. The city area seems to just be one long fight after another. I will die befor ever moving back to a city area, im not even kidding. NOTHING could get me to live there ever again (I was born and raised in the L.A. area, btw, if that even matters)
And i have no opinion, or even understanding of, the wind shelters. Ive been up baldy a few times n never used em....actually sorta wondered why everyone huddled in em anyway, I always just sat away from them on open ground, anywhos.. just my opinion.

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:13 pm

Today:

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:21 pm

Makes me want to set up a time-lapse camera. It would be like those rocks in Death Valley, on the 'racetrack".

KathyW · Post by **KathyW** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:28 am

mcphersonm80 wrote: ↑Call it what you will, but I'm not lamenting man-made structures being torn down at 10,000 feet, and I've used it for shelter overnight on more than one occasion. ::shrug::

I agree - it's not vandalism - it's just a different point of view. It might be that some people view the shelters as vandalism.

Those shelters don't seem very important in the grand scheme of things - I wouldn't go to the effort to take them apart or rebuild them.

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:05 pm

KathyW wrote: ↑Those shelters don't seem very important in the grand scheme of things.

Why just yesterday I was sitting in a wind shelter on top of Mount Baldy talking to a friend about the fact that this trivial subject had resulted in a long-running thread on the San Gabriel Board. Sometimes, we (and I definitely include myself) can go on and on about the little things.

Post by **HikeUp** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:46 pm

I think this thread has legs because both sides are still active in doing what they think is right - build em, tear em down, build em, tear em down....blah blah blah.

Once either side gives up, we'll shut up.

everyday · Post by **everyday** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:55 pm

I think, if yer gonna build something on top of a cold windy mountain, build a working hot-tub! thatd be pretty sweet. 8)

Post by **Sean** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:35 pm

KathyW wrote: ↑I agree - it's not vandalism - it's just a different point of view.

It's not "just a different point of view." It's an evil point of view. These people are either ignorant vandals or pure life-haters. In either case, they represent a certain degree of evil on the mountain.

The people who build those shelters do so for a very good, noble reason: to benefit and sustain human life at the summit during bad, and potentially life-threatening, conditions. I have personally experienced the true benefit of those shelters, and I'll be helping to keep them up there from now on by putting a few rocks in place whenever I can.

The pure life-haters will have a handful of excuses for destroying the shelters, but they are all total BS. These people know that the shelters have a valid purpose, but they are simply too cowardly to straight up say they don't care about human life.

everyday · Post by **everyday** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:41 am

Damn! hes on to us! youre right sean. Just because i think its nice to keep the few wild places left unmarked by humans, It must be because ima life hater!
I hate you all ! die! die! LOL (sean, you could always buy a tent and sleepingbags dood. or even just a nano puff n a hardshell n wool sox,with all the high tech gear out there these days, i guarantee you ya wont die just cause theres no rock wall on a so cal mountain peak (unless youre really ignorant and know nothing about how to be prepared and take care of yourself outside of a city, and , if thats the case, you have no business goin out there fool).

dont destroy natural beauty just because yer too cheap n lazy to purchase and carry the proper gear.....possibly check a weather forcaste too so ya dont get caught out ina "unexpected" storm) You can tell a storms commin by lookin at a satalite pic n see if theyres any cloud type things offshore )

and "evil"? really dood? are you high? or just really crazy? or just trolling? yer post was so nutty, ima guess trolling

Post by **Sean** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:58 am

everyday wrote: ↑Damn! hes on to us! youre right sean. Just because i think its nice to keep the few wild places left unmarked by humans, It must be because ima life hater!
I hate you all ! die! die! LOL (sean, you could always buy a tent and sleepingbags dood. or even just a nano puff n a hardshell n wool sox,with all the high tech gear out there these days, i guarantee you ya wont die just cause theres no rock wall on a so cal mountain peak (unless youre really ignorant and know nothing about how to be prepared and take care of yourself outside of a city, and , if thats the case, you have no business goin out there fool). dont destroy natural beauty just because yer too cheap n lazy to purchase and carry the proper gear.....possibly check a weather forcaste too so ya dont get caught out ina "unexpected" storm) You can tell a storms commin by lookin at a satalite pic n see if theyres any cloud type things offshore )

and "evil"? really dood? are you high? or just really crazy? or just trolling? yer post was so nutty, ima guess trolling

Why don't you straight up say that you don't care about human life? Instead you say things like "i guarantee you ya wont die just cause theres no rock wall on a so cal mountain peak (unless youre really ignorant and know nothing about how to be prepared and take care of yourself outside of a city, and, if thats the case, you have no business goin out there fool)." We can understand, by inference, that you don't care about "ignorant" human life. You don't mind if an "ignorant" person gets caught on the summit and dies from exposure. How about an unlucky dayhiker who breaks his leg or something and has to spend a windy winter night up there? Do you hate unlucky, knowledgeable people, too? How about poor people who can't afford all of your high tech gear suggestions? Do you hate poor hikers?

Besides, the shelters were built primarily for making camping a little easier, right? So do you only partly hate human life? Do you merely want campers to suffer the full impact of nature, and spend a miserable night on the mountain, because it's more beautiful when the rocks are scattered versus stacked neatly? Do you also fume, red in the face, during every step you take on the man-made, nature-destroying trails leading up to the summit? Do you have wet dreams about ruining the trails too?

You will never admit it--straight up. But you hate human life. Even a five minute dissection of your couple paragraphs tells me that much. Every sentence you write screams: "I hate you all! Die? Die!" You joke about it. But your entire post validates my point. You prefer "wild places" and "natural beauty" over human life. And you've picked one of the least wild and least beautiful summits on which to make your stand. There are four popular trails which take thousands of people to Baldy every year. The summit itself is ugly, barren with no trees. What a ridiculous place to make a stand against human rock-piling.