http://www.urbancarnivores.com/laurels-blog/
Mountain lion attack, buck homicide, or freak accident? No legs were broken, and the deer's neck seemed normal too. There was a puncture wound under the left eye, but I didn't get good photos of that.
I'd love to hear your theories!
CSI Santa Monica - what happened to this deer?
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atomicoyote
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- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:16 pm
Probably too early in the season, but it may have been injured in an early-season 'rut' fight with another male, wandered off and died here (internal injuries)?
Fallen off a nearby cliff or other promentory and sustained internal injuries?
Disease? or heart attack from trying to flee the Williams Fire? (If it was near the fire area).
Consumed something bad, died of poisoning? Maybe got into the trash at a Taco Bell down the hill? I know that crap makes me ill just thinking about it!
Hit by lightning from a recent t-storm?
Zombies? Of course they would have devoured the brain. (The CDC has declared October as 'Zombie Awareness Month').
Fallen off a nearby cliff or other promentory and sustained internal injuries?
Disease? or heart attack from trying to flee the Williams Fire? (If it was near the fire area).
Consumed something bad, died of poisoning? Maybe got into the trash at a Taco Bell down the hill? I know that crap makes me ill just thinking about it!
Hit by lightning from a recent t-storm?
Zombies? Of course they would have devoured the brain. (The CDC has declared October as 'Zombie Awareness Month').
Very interesting!
Do you think the dead buck is the first buck in the video?
Trauma would be high on my list of differentials. As Mr a.coyote said, a fight with another male... Could the deer have been running and hit a tree in the dark? Last year, we had a doe run into a brick wall across from my driveway. Other than a bloody nose, the body was clean.
Disease is a possibility but I'm NOT up on deer diseases. A well-fleshed buck is not likely to have been sick. West Nile, to my knowledge, has never been reported in mule deer, either.
Lightning-struck animals typically have scorch marks.
You guys didn't post (necropsy) the deer? Where is your sense of adventure? It would have been fun to see who of you was most resistant to the odor of decaying organs:)
Do you think the dead buck is the first buck in the video?
Trauma would be high on my list of differentials. As Mr a.coyote said, a fight with another male... Could the deer have been running and hit a tree in the dark? Last year, we had a doe run into a brick wall across from my driveway. Other than a bloody nose, the body was clean.
Disease is a possibility but I'm NOT up on deer diseases. A well-fleshed buck is not likely to have been sick. West Nile, to my knowledge, has never been reported in mule deer, either.
Lightning-struck animals typically have scorch marks.
You guys didn't post (necropsy) the deer? Where is your sense of adventure? It would have been fun to see who of you was most resistant to the odor of decaying organs:)
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cougarmagic
- Posts: 1409
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:21 pm
It's important to know that the video captures the moment of 'impact' for this deer. (and you can hear a bit of struggle going on if you listen close) The camera was just a few feet from where he was laying. The 'victim' is definitely the first deer.
Some people (on a hunting forum) have said Blue Tongue disease is possible, that it acts quickly and deer don't show many symptoms. Don't know anything about that though. He looked really strong, with good fur.
Oh man, the smell was BAD. Even just breathing through my mouth, that stench works its way into the nostrils somehow. Not ashamed to admit there were a couple of dry heaves. I'll wait till it dries out, then check the skull for punctures. But I think that'll take a while!
Tanner was the most brave, and the most 'hands on' (with gloves of course).
Some people (on a hunting forum) have said Blue Tongue disease is possible, that it acts quickly and deer don't show many symptoms. Don't know anything about that though. He looked really strong, with good fur.
Oh man, the smell was BAD. Even just breathing through my mouth, that stench works its way into the nostrils somehow. Not ashamed to admit there were a couple of dry heaves. I'll wait till it dries out, then check the skull for punctures. But I think that'll take a while!
Tanner was the most brave, and the most 'hands on' (with gloves of course).
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atomicoyote
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:16 pm
Probably depends a lot on where this happened, but its strange that when you & friends went back the second day that all that had happened was maggots had invaded the carcass? Sounds odd, as I would have expected the area's wildlife to have started working it over - cougars, bobcats, mice, rats, weasels, and vultures to name a few. Odd . . .
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PackerGreg
- Posts: 623
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Late in 2005 we lost a horse from Adams' Pack Station, Jake, in a fall from the Gabrielino Trail. He got some Yucca caught between the rear legs, panicked, and was at dead at the bottom of Tiger Lily Canyon in seconds.
Yeah, I hear it. I'm betting on some kind of impact trauma either from the second bigger buck or something like a tree.cougarmagic wrote: ↑It's important to know that the video captures the moment of 'impact' for this deer. (and you can hear a bit of struggle going on if you listen close) The camera was just a few feet from where he was laying. The 'victim' is definitely the first deer.
No bluetongue here...cougarmagic wrote: ↑Some people (on a hunting forum) have said Blue Tongue disease is possible, that it acts quickly and deer don't show many symptoms. Don't know anything about that though. He looked really strong, with good fur.
Hello,
frame by frame and vari-speed review show the second buck not in flight, but attacking the first deer.
Note the body position, dropped head and shoulders with lowered antlers, and explosive acceleration toward the lead buck.
This is not flight from an unseen predator in process of attacking or startling the two bucks.
Subsequent sounds are of continued conflict.
There are several reasons why the ongoing sounds are *not* of another, unseen, animal.
Delay in necropsy allowing degradation of the carcass may obscure findings relevant to the cause of death (among the fattening maggots!), whether primary or secondary.
I won't belabor with typing speculations of the myriad single and multi-factor potential causes of death with such a conflict. Scrutiny would help reveal that which is occult.
The scene and forest floor appear relatively undisturbed in the photos. Were they taken on Friday Sept. 7th, with the followup visit on the weekend Sat 8th or Sun 9th? Vid footage time stamp 0320 Sept 3rd?
The timing fits for maggot maturation.
Do you have additional photos of the deer and site? They would be helpful to evaluate the context and possible cause of death, beyond the evidence that it came at the "hand" of the second deer.
(and BTW don't think for another second that a mountain lion paused to lick off axillary hairs of the deer without leaving sign of other activity with the corpus.)
kind regards,
arocknoid
frame by frame and vari-speed review show the second buck not in flight, but attacking the first deer.
Note the body position, dropped head and shoulders with lowered antlers, and explosive acceleration toward the lead buck.
This is not flight from an unseen predator in process of attacking or startling the two bucks.
Subsequent sounds are of continued conflict.
There are several reasons why the ongoing sounds are *not* of another, unseen, animal.
Delay in necropsy allowing degradation of the carcass may obscure findings relevant to the cause of death (among the fattening maggots!), whether primary or secondary.
I won't belabor with typing speculations of the myriad single and multi-factor potential causes of death with such a conflict. Scrutiny would help reveal that which is occult.
The scene and forest floor appear relatively undisturbed in the photos. Were they taken on Friday Sept. 7th, with the followup visit on the weekend Sat 8th or Sun 9th? Vid footage time stamp 0320 Sept 3rd?
The timing fits for maggot maturation.
Do you have additional photos of the deer and site? They would be helpful to evaluate the context and possible cause of death, beyond the evidence that it came at the "hand" of the second deer.
(and BTW don't think for another second that a mountain lion paused to lick off axillary hairs of the deer without leaving sign of other activity with the corpus.)
kind regards,
arocknoid
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cougarmagic
- Posts: 1409
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:21 pm
Yes, that's exactly right. The video timestamp is correct, and the photos were the afternoon of Friday the 7th. The ground was scuffed at the place you see the second buck charge. There was one smallish branch/log that was broken next to the deer, but otherwise the leaves were not disturbed. Leaves are falling a lot right now though.
No. I can get some next time I go, though. It's your average canyon bottom, with small grassy 'banks' in places. There is still a small amount of flowing water here, while most other streams are dry now. Lots of deer activity in general. (green, fresh grass and water)Do you have additional photos of the deer and site?
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense at all.(and BTW don't think for another second that a mountain lion paused to lick off axillary hairs of the deer without leaving sign of other activity with the corpus.)
There's a camera on the carcass. So we'll see if anything besides vultures come to feed off it. Probably way past the point that any predators would though.
Thanks aroknoid!
Dang. Someone beat me to it, but I concur.
Interesting vid and pics. Not much to go on except:
>At 0:00 you can see the number 1 deer's tongue hanging out. He was already involved in something.
>The number 1 deer had a bad case of "rut neck". It's early in the year but the pic doesn't lie.
>Male deer with swollen necks aren't real gregarious.
>The excitement came with no warning. If you do a frame by frame look, the number 2 deer bolts before so much as an ear twitch.
Good mystery. Let us know what might be uncovered.
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cougarmagic
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Would any of you guys mind if Laurel posts some of your comments on the blog? Some of the things you've noticed (especially the chupacabra theory) are great.
Not at all. Another point to consider: The fur missing under the victim's armpit is exactly where such wear would be found if the number 2 deer was his..... close friendcougarmagic wrote: ↑Would any of you guys mind if Laurel posts some of your comments on the blog? Some of the things you've noticed (especially the chupacabra theory) are great.
Deer in the rut aren't real particular about gender. I wonder if a matching rub/wear spot is on the right side too?I have a picture of that scenario but I don't think it would be appropriate to post here.
About 10 years ago in the cemetery by Griffith Park, a deer was mating with a small statue. They get a little nuts and violent during that time.
I think we have a lover's quarrel here- if it wasn't a chupacabra.
No problem here. Arocknoid makes great observations!cougarmagic wrote: ↑Would any of you guys mind if Laurel posts some of your comments on the blog? Some of the things you've noticed (especially the chupacabra theory) are great.
Dang, I hadn't thought of the chupacabra angle...
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cougarmagic
- Posts: 1409
- Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:21 pm
A bit of an update. Hair samples taken from the tree scratches also yielded female mtn lion DNA.
Update on Tuesday, October 16, 2012 at 6:07PM by Registered CommenterLaurel Serieys
In the previous blog entry, I was planning to conduct genetic analysis on the swab I took on the bare spot of the deer's hide. I wanted to know if a mountain lion had at least licked off the spot of fur- which could also suggest that a mountain lion killed the deer to begin with. Well, the results are in and indeed, it was a mountain lion that licked the bare spot of fur off. Not only that, it was a female mountain lion! There generally seem to be less evidence female mountain lions in the Santa Monica Mountains than males (although the documented ratio of males to females born in SAMO so far is about 50/50). So, finding evidence of a female mountain lion is very exciting, as well as getting a genetic sample!