Add: Potrero John Creek w/ no ropes 7/19/12

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:16 pm

http://yankeebarbareno.com/2012/07/19/h ... ohn-creek/

"...There is no trail and we had no knowledge of other people having done it. We had no idea what to expect. Is it possible to descend Haddock Mountain into the Potrero John Creek watershed and make it to Sespe Creek with a only a pair of boots and trekking poles, no ropes, harnesses or other such mountaineering gear?..."

note: heard of Google? Ok, end of rant since there is too much to say here.

"....And we made mention of it; how smoothly the day was playing out.
Then within probably like fifty yards or less after resuming our hike, as if the mountain was mocking us in response to our discussion a few minutes before, we came across the first real obstacle. It was precisely what I had been concerned about; a substantial waterfall impossible to descend and with no apparent route around it upon first glance. This sucker was tall and hemmed in by steep rocky cliffs and crags on either side. And at this point we were deep into our hike. Returning back to the top of the peak would have been ass-kickingly miserable! We had to locate a route by which to continue down canyon....

Leaving the slope of loose rocks we penetrated through a section of heavy brush, our only bushwhacking of the day, and popped out atop a ridgeline overlooking a huge section of scree.....We slid slowly down it on our butts digging our heals into what little loose rock existed and in some places skidding the soles of our boots on bare rock, while bracing against out trekking poles, and trying as best we could to not break into an unstoppable free slide...I was a little more squarely line up to the tree, and as I came sliding toward it a bit faster than planned, I was able to stop myself by jamming my foot straight against the trunk. From that point we were able to walk-slide down the remainder of the slope which had a far deeper coverage of gravel....

We made our way down numerous unnamed good-sized, respectable waterfalls or cascades before arriving at the largest one, Potrero John Falls. Potrero John Falls was the last obstacle to get around and once we were there I finally breathed a sigh of relief; there was no longer any question that we had made it down the canyon...."

Post by **Taco** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:55 pm

Descending a canyon you know nothing about without canyoneering gear is never a good idea.

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:12 pm

But they used trekking poles!

HJ

bsmith · Post by **bsmith** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:30 pm

this links to the other explorer's trip report of that day - the one who came up with this grand scheme:

http://davidstillman.blogspot.com/2012/ ... -from.html

bsmith · Post by **bsmith** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:31 pm

Taco wrote: ↑Descending a canyon you know nothing about without canyoneering gear is never a good idea.

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:02 pm

Luckily they found a safe descent route.

HJ

bsmith · Post by **bsmith** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:32 pm

glissading potrero john.

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:53 pm

Hanging off PJ Falls was one of the most amateur and backwards rope systems I have ever run across. They used a 10mm PMI dynamic (stretchy) rope to tie off to a boulder 40 feet above and away from the top of the falls, then used 2 locking biners for an additional length of black static (unstretchy) rope. Backwards. I'm sorry I left the system as it was. I should have torn it down.

Not trying to be a snob, really, but I have actually canyoneered Potrero John. This setup was about the safest thing in this whole report.

"Adventure" can turn really sour, fast. Just a small amount of planning keeps it safe, and all the excitement is still there, too.

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:21 am

yeah, guys doing canyoneering with no equipment complaining about equipment being used "unsafely."

HJ

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:47 am

bsmith wrote: ↑this links to the other explorer's trip report of that day - the one who came up with this grand scheme:

http://davidstillman.blogspot.com/2012/ ... -from.html

That is what surprised me because they are usually deliberate and typically hike below their max skill level, and have a good handle on the onset of epicicity.

This aint your extremehikers type blog where 'fail' makes for a good laugh

davantalus · Post by **davantalus** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:13 pm

I've spent hours reading both these guys blogs in the past. Good reads by experienced adventurers.

They're highly conscious of cleaning up other anchors in Ventura county that could harm the dumb condors.

So I'd posit that David Stillman, at least, knows wtf. If they felt confident they could do this without ropes, then it would seem they found a worthy challenge and accomplished it without a bunch of unnecessary weight.

I'd presume that if If they left that system set up, it must have been a hard day.

Personally though, I'd carry some rope...

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:14 am

Thanks for the perspective. Not knowing them, I thought they were in over their heads. They must have had some scouting info or some such to know that the canyon would "go" without gear.

HJ

David Stillman · Post by **David Stillman** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:52 pm

Everybody is making such a big deal about my safety that I thought I'd chime in.
No, I did not have any advanced information regarding this descent other than an on-site recon of the upper portions of our route.
Yes, I did decide that in all likelihood PJ's drainage would be possible to descend without ropes and gear. Yes, I was right about that.
Yes, if we got in a jam we were prepared to simply climb back up the way we came and that would have been the end of it.
Yes, I chop old bolts and cut and remove gear in wilderness areas. Just because we are climbers doesn't make our trash okay.
Yes, I am responsible for my safety and the safety of those I am with. Duh. It's not like I haven't been climbing serious stuff for the last 20+ years.
Yes, I am a risk taker. Most ambitious adventurers have to stick their neck out if they are going to deviate from everybody else's game plan.
Yes, I reject the notion that those who weren't with me & Jack that day have any authority to criticize our descent and the way we went about it. It's just hot air. Jack and I know what we did, how it went, and that we accomplished what we set out to do. You guys are talking somebody else's walk. Take all the rope and gear you want. We didn't need it.

David Stillman · Post by **David Stillman** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:11 pm

I would also like to point out that at the bottom of my trip report I left a disclaimer in which I said "don't try this unless you know what you are doing". We did.

Post by **Taco** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:01 pm

Sorry dude. Internet. I won't comment on stuff anymore. The internet is bullshit anyway.

Keep on adventuring. Fuck what other people say.

davantalus · Post by **davantalus** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:13 pm

Caught!

Welcome to the forum, David.

Thanks for all the previously mentioned reading material. I really did enjoy living vicariously through all your adventures.

More relevant to the thread, I think that your gnarly picture of a bloody leg was probably responsible for the ire caught. Getting scuffed up calls more into question whether it would have been prudent to carry some small "just in case" rope/webbing stuffs... even if the damage wasn't necessarily caused by "canyoneering-without-rope".

Personally, my takeaway is to be careful posting pictures of wounds... similar to how I already avoid posting pictures of people without helmets in possible helmet-requiring situations.

David Stillman · Post by **David Stillman** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:58 pm

Um, I never once claimed that descending PJ was "canyoneering". That is a whole different animal, and I've done a modest bit of the real stuff during sabaticals in Flagstaff & Sedona. No, this wasn't canyoneering. It was exactly what I said it was: a ballsyClass I'VE descent of a big drainage. I'm a climber, hiker, and mountaineer and if I lived in Arizona or Utah I would add canyoneering to the mix.

As for bringing webbing and stuff, gear, we just went all in. And helmets? It couldn't have hurt.
And as to injury, my readers thrive on my blood. I don't write for the PG crowd, or any crowd really. I write primarily for myself. My blood, my blog. I'll post what I like.

-Crash Stillman

David Stillman · Post by **David Stillman** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:09 pm

Yeah, Class IV descent. Stupid iPad.

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:36 am

David Stillman wrote: ↑ Yes, I did decide that in all likelihood PJ's drainage would be possible to descend without ropes and gear. Yes, I was right about that.
Yes, if we got in a jam we were prepared to simply climb back up the way we came and that would have been the end of it.
Yes, I reject the notion that those who weren't with me & Jack that day have any authority to criticize our descent and the way we went about it. It's just hot air. Jack and I know what we did, how it went, and that we accomplished what we set out to do. You guys are talking somebody else's walk. Take all the rope and gear you want. We didn't need it.

-I dont know who you expect to believe that you were going to climb up that high angle slope( that you just slid down uncontrolled )and then up and out. A class 3 canyon refers to the inability to reverse, not the need of ropes to continue down.
-No, you were wrong about the need to carry ropes. Just because something is not used does not mean its not an error. But again, from what I have read you dont consider things not used a waste....or should people just not carry the supposed 10 essentials because they might not be used? The fools- carrying all that extra weight for nothing?
-I dont think anyone is trying to change what happened. I never know what is going to happen....maybe those dudes in my last trip could slide down 20 high angle ft into 3ft of water and avoid the repeated rescues in that area. It is still considered extreme, and not safe.

"On August 13, 1983, Soto, together with a number of his family members and friends went to the Angeles National Forest for a day outing. ... More specifically, Soto's party went to the Stoneyvale Picnic Ground area of Tujunga Canyon. ... Soto and at least some of his companions both swam and dove at both pools. At the Stone pool, Soto "tested" the water and judged it to be of sufficient depth for diving. He dove into the pool twice from a rock ledge. On the second dive his head hit the bottom of the pool."

The judge said that a failure to speak out despite known failures was a contempt/hatred of that person. I agree(with the statement although I think the forest service gave adequate info) and had someone gone down that canyon and ran into you two, and offered the use of whatever they had, then the notion that is rejected is that is somehow offensive. It can simply be declined or ignored.

Ze Hiker · Post by **Ze Hiker** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:59 am

what I've learned from this thread is that someone likes to say "balls" a lot in their posts and trip reports.

David Stillman · Post by **David Stillman** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:11 pm

I don't get you people. Class 3 has always been defined as steep scrambling. And yes, we would have been able to climb out. You guys don't like my style, fine. I've been doing this since before you all got your first rock shoes. I don't have time to waste on people who can't appreciate boldness. We did it, you didn't. Get over yourselves and get off the holier-than-thou soap box.
Are you guys saying that since I didn't use ropes to climb Class III Middle Palisade, that I was obligated to use them to get down? Seriously.
And, again, this was not canyoneering. It was a Class III-IV descent of a big drainage. Anybody that calls that canyoneering hasn't done the real thing.
I think I'm about done with you tiresome haters. And this forum. I'll just keep on doing what I do and you people can sit at home and talk. I'm going to Kings Canyon.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:50 pm

It's amusing to come on here and see some of you guys entertaining yourselves with fits of sarcastic ridicule based on your own assumptions.

AW wrote: ↑ heard of Google?

Your rhetorical question assumes, for some odd reason, that I had an interest in scrounging around the back alleys of the Internet seeking out second hand information to then decide if, based on the opinions of perfect strangers, I should go take a hike and if so how I should do it.

A large portion of the fun, excitement and value of the hike came from avoiding all of that rigmarole and, rather than being a follower, walking into a helping of the unknown.

And it was a hike not canyoneering. Hauling canyoneering gear around to descend Potrero John instead of just a pair of boots and poles is like setting up a circus tent to avoid a light spring rain rather than popping open a mere umbrella.

Hikin_Jim wrote: ↑But they used trekking poles!

HJ

And worn out boots!

Hikin_Jim wrote: ↑yeah, guys doing canyoneering with no equipment complaining about equipment being used "unsafely."

HJ

In this case the assumption by Jim is that he actually knew what canyoneering was. We were hiking, Jim. This was not canyoneering.

Hikin_Jim wrote: ↑Not knowing them, I thought they were in over their heads.

It's always a good idea to actually know what you're talking about before entering into a discussion. But by all means, please feel free to continue commenting about people you do not know and whose skills and ability you are totally clueless about.

David Stillman · Post by **David Stillman** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:13 pm

Jack my friend,
I pity the small-mindedness represented by the writers on this forum. Clearly they were given a large brain by mistake. Like I say, I'm done with these folks. We're being criticized by the "don't deviate from the guidebook crowd". This interaction demeans what we do and I'm through with them. I'm laughing while looking at the last 16 years worth of "Accidents in North American Mountaineering". It's obvious that we are in a discussion with the type of folks who have never just gone and done the unexpected, the ambitious, the risky. They will never taste the richness of our type of day in the mountains. They will never do a twentysix mile day through the snow with just a daypack. They will never run the rope out because they (rightly) have so little confidence in their abilities. Really Jack, this forum doesn't deserve our time.
- Crash Stillman

Ze Hiker · Post by **Ze Hiker** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:49 pm

But seriously, whose balls are bigger between the two of you?

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:29 pm

Begun, the flame wars have...

Post by **HikeUp** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:34 am

I guess they took their balls and went home.

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:56 pm

Sensitive much?

everyday · Post by **everyday** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:10 am

Your adventure was written about in a way that made it appear you guys didn't know what you were doing. Thus, people replied in a fashion that reflects that.

When I read your TR, I got the impression you guys were new to outdoorsy stuff, and that you should have brought technical gear.

Anyway, blah blah blah I'm done with this forum. By all means feel free to leave. This is the only thread with this much negative emotion in it in a while. From what I can see, the source of this is your trip report.

Ciao

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:24 pm

everyday wrote: ↑Your adventure was written about in a way that made it appear you guys didn't know what you were doing. Thus, people replied in a fashion that reflects that.

As I said, assumptions. It's amusing to come on here and see some people entertaining themselves with fits of sarcastic ridicule based on their own assumptions.

When I read your TR, I got the impression you guys were new to outdoorsy stuff,

That's quite an odd impression to get when in the first sentence of Stillman's write up he mentioned wanting "to find a Class III-IV route down the west face of Haddock Peak." What type of person that is "new to outdoorsy stuff" knows anything about such ratings and classifications and, furthermore, actually makes use of them? Answer: They don't.

Moreover, upon hitting Stillman's third paragraph, featured prominently in bold letters immediately to the right is a list of 14,000 foot mountains that he has climbed in one way or another. It is quite obvious to any reasonable person that, should a beginner to "outdoorsy stuff" for some odd reason make use of such aforementioned classifications to denote the steepness and technicality of a route, they sure as hell don't routinely ascend 14,000 mountains.

everyday · Post by **everyday** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:56 am

uhm. I never said that comment above . i dont personally dont care what yer doing or how you do it.....and now that ive seen this, i dont understand why everyone is critisizing you guys...shit, do whatever, have fun. fuk it. I do stuff people tell me i shouldnt all the time. Some people just like tellin everyone what to do, especially city people/weekend warriors. ...oh, and what i originally wanted to say was.. that I think Taco posted while i was still logged in so thats why it looks like me saying that stuff in the post above...it wasnt....soooo...thats his comment not mine. I personally, couldnt care less bout this topic as no running is involved