Why the Forest Service is busy and understaffed

simonov · Post by **simonov** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:42 am

They are wasting time (illegally) checking for California firearms violations.

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:25 am

Wouldn't it be nice if they checked things like vehicle break ins instead?

Ah, but weapons violations are ever so much more glamorous. And the generally law abiding citizens at a shooting area are much easier to deal with.

HJ

RichardK · Post by **RichardK** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:34 pm

Hikin_Jim wrote: ↑Wouldn't it be nice if they checked things like vehicle break ins instead?

Yeah, really. Break ins are so bad in the Palm Springs/Mecca Hills area that the guy who runs the hiking website http://www.hiking-in-ps.com said this in January:

I have had several reports of cars being broken into and vandalized in the area. I have also received reports of cars being broken into on almost every trailhead in the valley, and even the local TV news did a story about it. At this point I think I have to recommend to folks that they either do not go to the Mecca Hills area because of the crime, or go at their own risk. If you do go make sure you do not leave any valuables in your vehicle, especially in plain sight. However I would recommend not going to the area at this time as there is no police presence in the area, and it doesn't sound like this is going to stop any time soon. As far as the other trailheads, just don't leave valuables in sight, and use common sense and hopefully that will help.

I really wanted to hike the Mecca Hills while the weather was cool, but obviously those plans are on hold.

PackerGreg · Post by **PackerGreg** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:48 pm

There is an epidemic of power-tripping little trolls in this country. Welcome to the police state. If you see something, say something - Big Sis can't be everywhere, y'know.

The FS must be recruiting LEO's out of the TSA.

Post by **Taco** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:40 pm

RichardK wrote: ↑
Hikin_Jim wrote: ↑Wouldn't it be nice if they checked things like vehicle break ins instead?
Yeah, really. Break ins are so bad in the Palm Springs/Mecca Hills area that the guy who runs the hiking website http://www.hiking-in-ps.com said this in January:

I have had several reports of cars being broken into and vandalized in the area. I have also received reports of cars being broken into on almost every trailhead in the valley, and even the local TV news did a story about it. At this point I think I have to recommend to folks that they either do not go to the Mecca Hills area because of the crime, or go at their own risk. If you do go make sure you do not leave any valuables in your vehicle, especially in plain sight. However I would recommend not going to the area at this time as there is no police presence in the area, and it doesn't sound like this is going to stop any time soon. As far as the other trailheads, just don't leave valuables in sight, and use common sense and hopefully that will help.
I really wanted to hike the Mecca Hills while the weather was cool, but obviously those plans are on hold.

Thanks, Richard. I might head out to Mecca Hills to check out some of them there canyons for later. Good thing we've got a rental car!

MtnMan · Post by **MtnMan** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:04 pm

LOL, you're hilarious. This is a Federal Law Enforcement Officer, if they have any suspicions that your firearms may be illegal, they have every right to check that, no matter what the jurisdiction, whether it be county, city, local, state, private or federal. They can usually write citations for at least federal, county and state.

It's not up to you if you think they have probable cause or not.

Also, what was the context/reason for the search? Did she just show up and start searching? Did someone call in a report that you are aware of? There's alot of info missing here and to say they are wasting their time when they could be doing something else may hold more weight if you supplied more information. Sure, they do alot of things that waste time, but checking for illegal firearms isn't one thing that comes to mind.

Also, while Law Enforcement Officers on the national forests are probably understaffed like everyone else, it's completely different than most of the other USFS employees you see out cleaning bathrooms, doing trailwork, etc. And to my knowledge, USFS LEO's are at least partially funded/structured through Dept Of Homeland Security now.

I generally don't like cops anymore than the next person, but you are the kind of people that contribute to fucking it up for the rest of us, and also a prime reason why they are harassing you (and others) in the first place! Just cooperate if you've got nothing to hide, it'll be over in a few minutes, and if you're legal, you can go back to what you were doing and have a nice fucking day. The person with the power trip is you, not the cop.

PackerGreg · Post by **PackerGreg** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:14 pm

Spoken like a good little Nazi.

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:42 pm

There ought to be a law -- and there is.

PackerGreg · Post by **PackerGreg** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:03 pm

"[Godwin's] law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering... totalitarian regimes or ideologies"

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:53 pm

Of more relevance here: "Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Nazis."

PackerGreg · Post by **PackerGreg** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:07 pm

Spoken like a good little ostrich.

Mike P · Post by **Mike P** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:27 pm

PackerGreg wrote: ↑Spoken like a good little ostrich.

PackerGreg · Post by **PackerGreg** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:34 pm

It doesn't work on me...

"Ridicule is our most powerful weapon" ~Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals.

shreddy · Post by **shreddy** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:41 pm

PackerGreg wrote: ↑It doesn't work on me...

"Ridicule is our most powerful weapon" ~Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals.

Me neither. Guess I'm Daffy

Layne Cantrell · Post by **Layne Cantrell** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:52 pm

PackerGreg wrote: ↑It doesn't work on me...

"Ridicule is our most powerful weapon" ~Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals.

Damn. I had hopes of taking home "Most Serious Poster of the Year" honors this year, but after reading Greg's posts in this thread it has become apparent I have no chance.

simonov · Post by **simonov** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:55 am

MtnMan wrote: ↑LOL, you're hilarious. This is a Federal Law Enforcement Officer, if they have any suspicions that your firearms may be illegal, they have every right to check that, no matter what the jurisdiction, whether it be county, city, local, state, private or federal. They can usually write citations for at least federal, county and state.

Actually, they are checking for compliance with state law, which is none of their business and with which they have proven they have little training or expertise. This may be one of the local Forest Service rangers, active at Lytle Creek, who believes it is illegal to possess 30 round magazines in California. Such people should not be out in the field interacting with users of public lands until they pull their heads out of their asses.

And they are even a bit short on Federal civil rights law, since what you are seeing on the video are clear 4th Amendment violations. LEOs have no right to inspect those firearms without having probable cause or even reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed.

Your tax dollars at work: USFS Rangers doing the Sheriff's job, doing it badly, and violating the civil rights of the public while they are at it.

Honestly, you don't think there could be a more productive use of their time?

MtnMan · Post by **MtnMan** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:35 am

As I said, Federal LEO's (and many others) have the right to enforce the law no matter the jurisdiction. LEO's from most agencies overlap each other, especially on National Forests, where state laws may supercede federal, especially with firearms, and especially in an area where local police dept's aren't going to go on a regular basis (inside a national forest). Some LE agencies actually have agreements/contracts to cover things in another area that is logistically unfeasible for them to go to on a regular basis.

And again, their 'reasonable cause' does not have to agree with yours. You've got an arsenal of high power firearms (at a shooting range or not), to me, that in itself is reasonable cause to inspect and make sure you are legal and nothing else going on. That's how they find probably 25% of the felons in this country by stopping and inspecting things like this.

Now, I get they were doing inspections, but again why were they there? Did they get a call from the shooting range operator? The public? Were they just in the area, and stopped by on a whim to see if anything is unusual to them?

I'm not defending the experience of the officer, or even their use of time. Frankly, I think all the effort they spend on pot farms all over the forest is overkill, minus the safety issue. That's another story.

The point here is, they didn't do anything wrong, broke no laws, and were apparently doing something entirely within the scope of their job duties. I can understand you being pissed off you were bothered, but I know many gun owners that appreciate being inspected by LEO's, because it helps keep the people NOT legal from screwing things up for them.

simonov · Post by **simonov** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:50 pm

MtnMan wrote: ↑Now, I get they were doing inspections, but again why were they there? Did they get a call from the shooting range operator? The public? Were they just in the area, and stopped by on a whim to see if anything is unusual to them?

The last. Just some guys out in the desert minding their own business, breaking no laws, and doing nothing whatsoever to suggest they were breaking any laws.

BTW, I know that giving a shit about the 4th Amendment and the rest of our civil rights is soooo 1990s, but for those who are interested, police MAY NOT search or inspect you or your property without probable cause or a reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed. This goes back to 1689, if not earlier.

Simply being in possession of a firearm is not probable cause or reasonable suspicion. And the ACLU is finally getting on top of that, which I guess make it official.

Not that anyone really gives a shit. After all, there is no civil right a typical American will not gladly surrender for the mere appearance of enhanced personal security, right? Being shaken down by the cops for no reason at all is not big deal. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear!

Dragon · Post by **Dragon** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:55 pm

I think this quote is rather appropriate:

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Ben Franklin

PackerGreg · Post by **PackerGreg** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:28 pm

MtnMan wrote: ↑As I said, Federal LEO's (and many others) have the right to enforce the law no matter the jurisdiction.

Hayduke · Post by **Hayduke** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:18 am

PackerGreg wrote: ↑Spoken like a good little Nazi.

Credibility.... gone!

Post by **Taco** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:53 am

You guys are crazy.

PackerGreg · Post by **PackerGreg** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:38 pm

Hayduke wrote: ↑Credibility.... gone!

And your credibility is?...

MtnMan fancies himself a representative of the Forest Service, so the comparison is applicable.

SageUrsus · Post by **SageUrsus** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:06 am

Best weapon of choice to defend yourself from law enforcement...Your cellphone camera!

Here is the Fourth Amendment
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." 8)

rios · Post by **rios** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:28 am

Meanwhile...

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:25 pm

Slide Falls is now even more marked up

Post by **Taco** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:49 pm

Oh that's lovely.