Since the cartridges are no longer available for my excellent old Hank Roberts stoves, I decided to get a white gas stove. So today I fired up my new MSR Whisperlite Internationale for the first time and boiled a couple pans of water.
Holy Jeebus, now I know why hairy-chested mountaineers put up with all the pumping and priming and crap, this stove is really hot! Boiled my water in nothing flat.
Takes some practice, tho. Not nearly as easy as a cartridge stove. And there is that lingering smell of aviation fuel after cooking.
Holy cow, that's HAWT!
Nunc est bibendum
Yeah they're pretty nice.
Other things I like about them:
-You can pour in or pour out as much fuel as you want to, taking only as much as you need. You can also open the lid and see how much fuel there is left.
-They work well in high altitudes, some of the cartridge stoves start crapping out above 11k or so.
-They work well in the cold.
-The fuel can always be used for emergency signaling or fire starting -- or your flame thrower act; I've seen pictures of it being done. Not sure I want to try that myself. Of course it might be a good bear deterrent...
-You can vary the pressure to produce hotter or cooler flames.
And -- call me an environmentalist -- you don't have the waste of the canisters. Yes, I know you can recycle the canisters, but it takes a lot of energy to transport all that metal and even more to recycle them. The white gas stoves use (relatively) bulk fuel. I just buy the big gallon size Coleman gas cans at Big Five. I never buy the small cans that MSR sells. The gallon size lasts me a long time (a couple of years usually), but I've never had a problem with the gas going bad or the can leaking.
The down side is the whole priming thing, but you get the hang of it after a while. Supposedly, you can prime them buy holding a lighter's flame over the fuel loop for a bit, but I haven't tried that yet. Might be a nice option. The cannister stoves are also generally lighter and more compact.
Oh, and while canister styles can vary by locality -- camping gaz anyone? (common I understand overseas), the liquid fuel stoves can be pretty universal particularly if you get the multifuel ones that will burn some or all of the following: white gas, unleaded gasoline, regular (leaded) gasoline, aviation fuel, JP-1, Jet 1-A, diesel, stoddard solvent (whatever the heck that is), naptha, and kerosene. Now that's flexibility!
Other things I like about them:
-You can pour in or pour out as much fuel as you want to, taking only as much as you need. You can also open the lid and see how much fuel there is left.
-They work well in high altitudes, some of the cartridge stoves start crapping out above 11k or so.
-They work well in the cold.
-The fuel can always be used for emergency signaling or fire starting -- or your flame thrower act; I've seen pictures of it being done. Not sure I want to try that myself. Of course it might be a good bear deterrent...
-You can vary the pressure to produce hotter or cooler flames.
And -- call me an environmentalist -- you don't have the waste of the canisters. Yes, I know you can recycle the canisters, but it takes a lot of energy to transport all that metal and even more to recycle them. The white gas stoves use (relatively) bulk fuel. I just buy the big gallon size Coleman gas cans at Big Five. I never buy the small cans that MSR sells. The gallon size lasts me a long time (a couple of years usually), but I've never had a problem with the gas going bad or the can leaking.
The down side is the whole priming thing, but you get the hang of it after a while. Supposedly, you can prime them buy holding a lighter's flame over the fuel loop for a bit, but I haven't tried that yet. Might be a nice option. The cannister stoves are also generally lighter and more compact.
Oh, and while canister styles can vary by locality -- camping gaz anyone? (common I understand overseas), the liquid fuel stoves can be pretty universal particularly if you get the multifuel ones that will burn some or all of the following: white gas, unleaded gasoline, regular (leaded) gasoline, aviation fuel, JP-1, Jet 1-A, diesel, stoddard solvent (whatever the heck that is), naptha, and kerosene. Now that's flexibility!
I remember the arclite fireball while Bert was cleaning/priming or whatever he was doing to his MSR white-gas stove on top of Harwood, December 15th.
Momentary flashburn. Almost melted his vestibule, hehe ..
Not particularly impressed with white-gas stoves for applications is SoCal.
Momentary flashburn. Almost melted his vestibule, hehe ..
Not particularly impressed with white-gas stoves for applications is SoCal.
Have you taken your cartridge stove out in serious winter conditions? Admittedly, that's a relatively short period of the year, but it's nice to have the white gas stoves then. I definitely prefer the white gas stoves for melting snow.He219 wrote:I remember the arclite fireball while Bert was cleaning/priming or whatever he was doing to his MSR white-gas stove on top of Harwood, December 15th.
Momentary flashburn. Almost melted his vestibule, hehe ..
Not particularly impressed with white-gas stoves for applications is SoCal.
Otherwise the cartidge stoves pretty much work fine, and they are a lot more convenient -- no refilling, no pumping, no priming -- and pretty small and light.
Rick's stove evolution: Three rocks wood, Ronson butane, Gerry white gas, Svea 123 white gas, Peak One white gas, Primus white gas, MSR MGK multi fuel, Hank Robert's propane, MSR Whisperlite white gas, and finally, my homemade recycled soda can 
alcohol. Bought 14 HG cartridges for 25 cents each when Fedco went out of business but alas, they are all gone 
When I have spare time (like watching TV or something), I like making these soda/beer can alcohol stoves. They weigh like less than an ounce. Do a web search for soda or pepsi can stove if you're unfamiliar with them. I don't know what it is about them but I'm addicted to them...must be the old guy in me
alcohol. Bought 14 HG cartridges for 25 cents each when Fedco went out of business but alas, they are all gone When I have spare time (like watching TV or something), I like making these soda/beer can alcohol stoves. They weigh like less than an ounce. Do a web search for soda or pepsi can stove if you're unfamiliar with them. I don't know what it is about them but I'm addicted to them...must be the old guy in me
-
bertfivesix
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:29 pm
Haha, that's what happens when you don't pay attention to how much fuel you're using to prime. It even caught the snow on fire!He219 wrote:I remember the arclite fireball while Bert was cleaning/priming or whatever he was doing to his MSR white-gas stove on top of Harwood, December 15th.
Momentary flashburn. Almost melted his vestibule, hehe ..
Not particularly impressed with white-gas stoves for applications is SoCal.
Hey, Rick, nice backdrop on the Avatar photo.Rick M wrote:Rick's stove evolution: Three rocks wood, Ronson butane, Gerry white gas, Svea 123 white gas, Peak One white gas, Primus white gas, MSR MGK multi fuel, Hank Robert's propane, MSR Whisperlite white gas, and finally, my homemade recycled soda can
When I have spare time (like watching TV or something), I like making these soda/beer can alcohol stoves. They weigh like less than an ounce. Do a web search for soda or pepsi can stove if you're unfamiliar with them. I don't know what it is about them but I'm addicted to them...must be the old guy in me
So, are the alcohol stoves actually worthwhile? I've heard that they're relatively low heat and take a lot longer to cook with. I've also heard they can be a little "cranky" (difficult to get to work well) and that wind really plays hob with them. They sound like they might be a good stove to carry as a "just in case" on a day hike, but do you actually use them when you plan to be out overnight?
Regarding "proprietary" design cartridges: Yeah, I hear you. Dad had a really nice, lightweight propane stove. The company (Williams? I forget the name) went out of business. He bought as many cartridges as he could find and even got some good deals, but inevitably the cartridges ran out, and the stove was useless. I guess that's one really good thing about liquid fueled type stoves.
Hi Jim, nice meeting you up in John's Meadow. Was yours the party camped by the road to the Forsee Creek trailhead as we drove out on Sunday morning?Hikin_Jim wrote: So, are the alcohol stoves actually worthwhile? I've heard that they're relatively low heat and take a lot longer to cook with. I've also heard they can be a little "cranky" (difficult to get to work well) and that wind really plays hob with them. They sound like they might be a good stove to carry as a "just in case" on a day hike, but do you actually use them when you plan to be out overnight?
My hiking partner the weekend before last is into ultralight backpacking and has a homemade cat food tin alcohol stove. He uses it with a (store-bought) two-piece apparatus: a metal conical windbreak that stores flat and a large cup that nests in the top of the windbreak. He puts the windbreak over the stove and nests the cup (like a small pan) on top of the windbreak, and in a very short time he has boiling water! I was really surprised how fast it worked. So, yes, you can really cook with alcohol.
As I mentioned at the top of the thread, I have a couple of excellent Hank Roberts stoves and four obsolete cartridges for them. The stoves can, however, be retrofitted to use more modern cartridges. In fact, the retrofit design is an improvement on the original as the cartridge is remote from the stove, so you can safely use a windscreen with it.Regarding "proprietary" design cartridges: Yeah, I hear you. Dad had a really nice, lightweight propane stove. The company (Williams? I forget the name) went out of business. He bought as many cartridges as he could find and even got some good deals, but inevitably the cartridges ran out, and the stove was useless.
I'm just not sure when I'll be able to get the parts together to do the retrofit.
Nunc est bibendum
Hikin_Jim wrote:
Have you taken your cartridge stove out in serious winter conditions?
15F at 9,000+ feet. No problems for Snowpeak GigaPower or Jetboil.
It's tough using any stove in a snowstorm from a makeshift shelter.
Whadaya say, Rick M?
It's also nice not to have to shake-n-clean, prime or risk blowing yourself and your mates up at lower altitudes.Hikin_Jim wrote: Admittedly, that's a relatively short period of the year, but it's nice to have the white gas stoves then.
LoLz bertfivesix.
I prefer a big pot to melt snow in.Hikin_Jim wrote: I definitely prefer the white gas stoves for melting snow.
BTW, I do like my ETA Power stove very much for that purpose. I don't think another stove boils 2.1 Liters of snow faster.
Pretty good too for blueberry pancakes or chicken parmigiano (not the rehydrated type either).
Thing is, EtaPower is best used as a shared stove to save weight and space while cooking for multiple persons.
It's almost too big for me alone.
Bingo.Hikin_Jim wrote:Otherwise the cartidge stoves pretty much work fine, and they are a lot more convenient -- no refilling, no pumping, no priming -- and pretty small and light.
Isobutane cylinders also last a very long time.
Given the application, white gas and cylinder stoves have their optimal uses at altitude and for simplicity, respectively.
Key thing is nothing in SoCal is higher than Angels 11.5 Not much difference running out of fuel regardless if cartridges, white gas, alcohol or fuel sticks.
That's when you cook the old fashioned way.
Cool pics!
Detail stuff if you like that sort of thing:
OK, so I'm not the physicist here (Alan chime in), but the deal with cold and altitude and canisters is vapor pressure. Cold lowers the vapor pressure as the fuel (butane, isobutane, or propane) approaches its liquification point. Altitude also lowers the vapor pressure. As the vapor pressure falls, less gas is available from the canister. It starts taking longer and longer to cook. The piezo electric ignitor may also start to have trouble.
From what I've read, with an isobutane-propane mix (as in JetPower), if the temperature is above the liquification point of propane but below the liquification point of isobutane, you can burn off all the propane but still have left a lot of (now useless) isobutane. You can hear the fuel in the canister but you can't get anything to burn. I've read that isobutane needs to be kept above 25F, butane 32F, and propane 0F. I assume that's all at sea level.
15F isn't too bad -- propane is supposed to be good down to about 0F. It's below 0F that you'd really get into trouble. However, that's at sea level. Add in the altitude effects and you're pushing the safety margin a bit at 15F at 9,000+ feet. I personally feel a little safer with a liquid fuel; it gives me a little bit more of a safety margin. You can however do tricks like sticking the canister inside your coat and things like that to warm it so that it'll give off more gas.He219 wrote: 15F at 9,000+ feet. No problems for Snowpeak GigaPower or Jetboil.
Detail stuff if you like that sort of thing:
OK, so I'm not the physicist here (Alan chime in), but the deal with cold and altitude and canisters is vapor pressure. Cold lowers the vapor pressure as the fuel (butane, isobutane, or propane) approaches its liquification point. Altitude also lowers the vapor pressure. As the vapor pressure falls, less gas is available from the canister. It starts taking longer and longer to cook. The piezo electric ignitor may also start to have trouble.
From what I've read, with an isobutane-propane mix (as in JetPower), if the temperature is above the liquification point of propane but below the liquification point of isobutane, you can burn off all the propane but still have left a lot of (now useless) isobutane. You can hear the fuel in the canister but you can't get anything to burn. I've read that isobutane needs to be kept above 25F, butane 32F, and propane 0F. I assume that's all at sea level.
Ya got that right. Some people use a lighter to prime the stove which is supposed to be a bit less flare up prone. I'll have to try that some time. Still, any stove in any tent is a dicey proposition at best. Makes me really uneasy.He219 wrote: It's tough using any stove in a snowstorm from a makeshift shelter.
Whadaya say, Rick M?
Wow. That's pretty cool. Am I reading the REI site correctly? It'll burn canister or liquid fuel, and not just white gas; it's multi-fuel. The best of all worlds in one stove. Nice efficiency rating too, 10.78 liters boiled per 100g fuel (a Whisperlite boils 7.3 liters per 100g fuel by comparison). It is a tad heavy at 2 lbs. Maybe worth it if going into extreme conditions. Looks like it'd be really bomb-proof in wind.He219 wrote: BTW, I do like my ETA Power stove very much for that purpose. I don't think another stove boils 2.1 Liters of snow faster.
Pretty good too for blueberry pancakes or chicken parmigiano (not the rehydrated type either).
Thing is, EtaPower is best used as a shared stove to save weight and space while cooking for multiple persons.
It's almost too big for me alone.
Nah. Really old fashioned is when you wait for lightning stikes to light your fire. Pardon me, I'd better get back to mastodon hunting ...
Good to meet you too. Actually, this was a pretty wimpy trip. We were staying in one of the "organizational camps" in Barton Flats (read: "indoors"). Haven't done an outdoor overnighter for a while and am itching to do so. I did come up half day the day before the "official" camp started and hiked the Momyer mini loop, which was fun. I was envious of you guys since I just turned around at the meadow and went home. Still, any hiking is better than no hiking. Can't always overnight.simonov wrote: Hi Jim, nice meeting you up in John's Meadow. Was yours the party camped by the road to the Forsee Creek trailhead as we drove out on Sunday morning?
I'll have to see one for myself one time. I'd be concerned that it'd be precarious and that I'd knock the whole thing over or that it'd be useless in the wind. Still, it's good to know that someone's been using one successfully and that it works well. I had visions of ultra long cook times that only and ultra-lighter would put up with.simonov wrote: My hiking partner the weekend before last is into ultralight backpacking and has a homemade cat food tin alcohol stove. He uses it with a (store-bought) two-piece apparatus: a metal conical windbreak that stores flat and a large cup that nests in the top of the windbreak. He puts the windbreak over the stove and nests the cup (like a small pan) on top of the windbreak, and in a very short time he has boiling water! I was really surprised how fast it worked. So, yes, you can really cook with alcohol.
Very cool. I guess maybe I should have kept that old stove of my dad's. I do have my uncles ancient Primus white gas stove from the 70's (60's?). Maybe I should try to get that thing going. We should have an "old school" day sometime where people can showcase all their "ancient" gear. lolsimonov wrote:As I mentioned at the top of the thread, I have a couple of excellent Hank Roberts stoves and four obsolete cartridges for them. The stoves can, however, be retrofitted to use more modern cartridges. In fact, the retrofit design is an improvement on the original as the cartridge is remote from the stove, so you can safely use a windscreen with it.Regarding "proprietary" design cartridges: Yeah, I hear you. Dad had a really nice, lightweight propane stove. The company (Williams? I forget the name) went out of business. He bought as many cartridges as he could find and even got some good deals, but inevitably the cartridges ran out, and the stove was useless.
I'm just not sure when I'll be able to get the parts together to do the retrofit.
He219 asked Déjà vu, the pictures you have look just like a scene 20 years ago below Dry Lake. We had built two igloos, one lower down and then a second one farther up. We skied out in a storm and came upon a droopy snow covered Marmot Gortex tent that I had read about next to our lower igloo. I skied up and asked if someone was inside…no reply. We were going to have lunch in the igloo and found the two tent people had moved into it! We had a good time taking with them about the building procedures. I stopped bringing tents with me years ago. Before one thinks about doing so you definitely need experience building them first. Cooking in a snow storm in a bivvy sack... 
I find that's when stoves do their best. Below zero, raging blizzard, melting snow AND warming up the shelter...I'm loving it in the right kind of makeshift shelter (I'm an igloo fanatic)It's tough using any stove in a snowstorm from a makeshift shelter.
Whadaya say, Rick M?
Déjà vu, the pictures you have look just like a scene 20 years ago below Dry Lake. We had built two igloos, one lower down and then a second one farther up. We skied out in a storm and came upon a droopy snow covered Marmot Gortex tent that I had read about next to our lower igloo. I skied up and asked if someone was inside…no reply. We were going to have lunch in the igloo and found the two tent people had moved into it! We had a good time taking with them about the building procedures. I stopped bringing tents with me years ago. Before one thinks about doing so you definitely need experience building them first. Cooking in a snow storm in a bivvy sack... Before I go any further, Happy Birthday, Rick.
So, just how many of those little alcohol stoves do you have? Do you give them out as a "consolation prize" (sorry you didn't make it on your hike) to people you pick up on SAR missions?
Igloos, hunh? Have you got that "down to a science?" I went through the Sierra Club's WTC course recently. We tried to build a 3, maybe 4, person sized igloo, but it took us a long time, 3 hours+. It seems like it would be impractical for a weekend trip; you'd spend a great percentage of your time just building the shelter. Plus the snow has to be plentiful and of the right kind. I'd be a little hesitant to depend on one since one never knows about snow conditions around here.
So, just how many of those little alcohol stoves do you have? Do you give them out as a "consolation prize" (sorry you didn't make it on your hike) to people you pick up on SAR missions?
Igloos, hunh? Have you got that "down to a science?" I went through the Sierra Club's WTC course recently. We tried to build a 3, maybe 4, person sized igloo, but it took us a long time, 3 hours+. It seems like it would be impractical for a weekend trip; you'd spend a great percentage of your time just building the shelter. Plus the snow has to be plentiful and of the right kind. I'd be a little hesitant to depend on one since one never knows about snow conditions around here.
Dry Lake it was, last December 9th.Rick M wrote: Déjà vu, the pictures you have look just like a scene 20 years ago below Dry Lake.
Happy Birthday Rick; Cheers!
Question on the snowstorm topic - does an igloo vent exhaust gas at the peak? What about cooking from the vestibule of a tent in a storm, that's what I did. Just enough to vent outside. The idea of carbon-monoxide poisining sucks, but is there a way to use the stove as a heater for the tent, short of carrying up a smokestack?
There are a couple of very informative threads on igloos at SummitPost.Hikin_Jim wrote:Igloos, hunh? Have you got that "down to a science?" I went through the Sierra Club's WTC course recently. We tried to build a 3, maybe 4, person sized igloo, but it took us a long time, 3 hours+. It seems like it would be impractical for a weekend trip; you'd spend a great percentage of your time just building the shelter. Plus the snow has to be plentiful and of the right kind. I'd be a little hesitant to depend on one since one never knows about snow conditions around here.
Basically, as you discovered, an igloo is too much work for an overnight. But since a good igloo can last all season, most of the experienced folks in the threads simply build them at the beginning of the season and continue using them all year.
It would be nice to have an igloo or two at one's disposal at, say, Dry Lake. Maybe use the forums to sign up to use them.
Nunc est bibendum
Interesting. A lot of the guys on Summitpost are in Colorado or other colder climes. I wonder if a seasonal Igloo would work here. We get those darned hot days even in the dead of winter. If it could be made to work, that would be very cool. Maybe proper siting? Maybe in a really shady, protected area?simonov wrote:There are a couple of very informative threads on igloos at SummitPost.
Basically, as you discovered, an igloo is too much work for an overnight. But since a good igloo can last all season, most of the experienced folks in the threads simply build them at the beginning of the season and continue using them all year.
It would be nice to have an igloo or two at one's disposal at, say, Dry Lake. Maybe use the forums to sign up to use them.
Thanks guys (BDay).
At any given time I have maybe 10-20. Good idea for consolation prizes I usually try to have one or two in my pack (the second one being to give to whoever thinks they are amazing when they see one). I occasionally experiment when making them by changing the number of jets or volume of fuel held or…In short, I think they are remarkable for what they are.
Must be something about tents and snow at Dry Lake I would be really wary of using stoves with tents. I've seen when accidents happen and CO really bonds tightly with your blood cells. Even if you don't kill yourself you could be decreasing your oxygen uptake as a result. I suppose with the vestible wide open and lots of wind to the point your tent is being "aired out" might lessen that. Since a rain fly is waterproof and Gortex fabrics not that breathable, I would not do it...this is why for bad conditions, I always carry some/all food that's edible without cooking.
Using a stove to warm a tent? I suppose you could heat a lot of water OUTSIDE and then bring it inside to warm a small tent (very inefficient) but I would never bring a stove inside a tent to use. I have toyed with the idea of making a tent with a clear vinyl wall on one side (what a view outside) and black nylon for the rest. Face the vinyl wall south and let the sunlight in to warm the ground, bag, pad, air, and you and maybe even melt snow. For those that need the workout and want to carry extra weight, bring a small 400 watt AirX wind turbine and an electric heating element.
With regard to igloos (snow shelters being a topic all unto themselves) I ended with
I have made them with just 3 or 4 inches of snow on the ground. This takes lots of time and the resulting design does not make the warmest igloo. I usually don't like going out when there is just a few inches of snow on the ground (makes for difficult footing on anything except a smooth trail). I took a group of people up to the last remaining snow patch we could find one year and we built one (outside temps were in the low 80s) but it was hard to believe that an igloo could be "warm" in those conditions. When completed, I said there was no way I would build or sleep in an igloo under those conditions, much better to sleep under the stars.
We once had two stoves and a candle going in an igloo with no measurable effects. Snow is very porous and sometimes it gets so hot in them (94 degrees near the top in one with four of us in inside) that you poke holes in them to allow excess heat out. I usually don't get much of a problem with drips the first night as the snow acts like a sponge but as the nights go by, that soaked in water freezes and begins making an icy glazing inside that can cause drips and possible cause CO build up. Very easy to poke holes for ventilation and then patch them when you turn in. I remember that in the warm 94 one we awoke to 5" icicles hanging down above us
The only two times I was not able to complete an igloo (I've built over a hundred) was when the "snow" was made of several thin layers of ice from several storms of little snow with melt /freeze cycles between and another occasion when I left very early in the morning and after the walls were two feet high, I laid out my pad and sleeping bag to take a "nap" and woke up looking at stars instead of snow. Those make nice wind breaks (I'm sure you've seen pictures of those with tents pitched inside) but do little to insulate and if a lot of snow fall in a storm you spend a lot of time shoveling where as a completed igloo would be stronger and insulate better with the additional snow covering. You can sit on top of an igloo after use, name me one (backpackable) tent strong enough to do that.
The most I ever built on a single trip 4.5 on Denali. I carried my 10/11 pound VE-24 tent a few times solo and it was very spacious but I definitely knew I was carrying it with every step. My solution was to carry a snow saw and bivvy sack instead (and I can fit that in a pack side pocket or fanny pack) Interestingly enough, most igloos I've built have been for single night usage, usually Saturday nites.
Simonov said
And as Simonov also said Posting them on the net has another down side: with others using them in storms, some people think about doing their "business" inside and then leaving the igloo, shall we say, no longer habitable:x
At any given time I have maybe 10-20. Good idea for consolation prizes
I usually try to have one or two in my pack (the second one being to give to whoever thinks they are amazing when they see one). I occasionally experiment when making them by changing the number of jets or volume of fuel held or…In short, I think they are remarkable for what they are.Must be something about tents and snow at Dry Lake
I would be really wary of using stoves with tents. I've seen when accidents happen and CO really bonds tightly with your blood cells. Even if you don't kill yourself you could be decreasing your oxygen uptake as a result. I suppose with the vestible wide open and lots of wind to the point your tent is being "aired out" might lessen that. Since a rain fly is waterproof and Gortex fabrics not that breathable, I would not do it...this is why for bad conditions, I always carry some/all food that's edible without cooking.Using a stove to warm a tent? I suppose you could heat a lot of water OUTSIDE and then bring it inside to warm a small tent (very inefficient) but I would never bring a stove inside a tent to use. I have toyed with the idea of making a tent with a clear vinyl wall on one side (what a view outside) and black nylon for the rest. Face the vinyl wall south and let the sunlight in to warm the ground, bag, pad, air, and you and maybe even melt snow.
For those that need the workout and want to carry extra weight, bring a small 400 watt AirX wind turbine and an electric heating element. With regard to igloos (snow shelters being a topic all unto themselves) I ended with
Some people have better luck with snow caves, some with trenches, the variety is great but done right, they are all quiet, warm, storm proof and easily stuffed and carried in your pack. Under perfect snow conditions, by myself, I can make a two-person (I'm 6'2") igloo in 45 minutes if I'm pressed for time. Extra people can either make it easier or harder but not much quicker (lots of talking, snow ball fights, etc).Before one thinks about doing so you definitely need experience building them first
I have made them with just 3 or 4 inches of snow on the ground. This takes lots of time and the resulting design does not make the warmest igloo. I usually don't like going out when there is just a few inches of snow on the ground (makes for difficult footing on anything except a smooth trail). I took a group of people up to the last remaining snow patch we could find one year and we built one (outside temps were in the low 80s) but it was hard to believe that an igloo could be "warm" in those conditions. When completed, I said there was no way I would build or sleep in an igloo under those conditions, much better to sleep under the stars.
We once had two stoves and a candle going in an igloo with no measurable effects. Snow is very porous and sometimes it gets so hot in them (94 degrees near the top in one with four of us in inside) that you poke holes in them to allow excess heat out. I usually don't get much of a problem with drips the first night as the snow acts like a sponge but as the nights go by, that soaked in water freezes and begins making an icy glazing inside that can cause drips and possible cause CO build up. Very easy to poke holes for ventilation and then patch them when you turn in. I remember that in the warm 94 one we awoke to 5" icicles hanging down above us
The only two times I was not able to complete an igloo (I've built over a hundred) was when the "snow" was made of several thin layers of ice from several storms of little snow with melt /freeze cycles between and another occasion when I left very early in the morning and after the walls were two feet high, I laid out my pad and sleeping bag to take a "nap" and woke up looking at stars instead of snow
. Those make nice wind breaks (I'm sure you've seen pictures of those with tents pitched inside) but do little to insulate and if a lot of snow fall in a storm you spend a lot of time shoveling where as a completed igloo would be stronger and insulate better with the additional snow covering. You can sit on top of an igloo after use, name me one (backpackable) tent strong enough to do that.The most I ever built on a single trip 4.5 on Denali. I carried my 10/11 pound VE-24 tent a few times solo and it was very spacious but I definitely knew I was carrying it with every step. My solution was to carry a snow saw and bivvy sack instead (and I can fit that in a pack side pocket or fanny pack)
Interestingly enough, most igloos I've built have been for single night usage, usually Saturday nites.Simonov said
As stated above, I disagree and with all the talk about fitness and killer day hikes it seems strange to not want to spend some time for a killer shelter unless one is too tapped out when they reach camp...maybe from carrying that heavy tent? I We've always had more fun building them than putting up a tent.Basically, as you discovered, an igloo is too much work for an overnight.
And as Simonov also said
We've built lots here in SoCal and have sometimes continued to use the same one. The longest was one we built in the depression located on top of Baldy Bowl in November and last used it in April a few years back. The Forest Service has a concern about them (building shelters in the National Forest and safety should someone fall in or it collapse on them). I have suggested building some in certain locations for SAR use but I'm alone on this ideaBut since a good igloo can last all season, most of the experienced folks in the threads simply build them at the beginning of the season and continue using them all year. It would be nice to have an igloo or two at one's disposal at, say, Dry Lake. Maybe use the forums to sign up to use them.
Posting them on the net has another down side: with others using them in storms, some people think about doing their "business" inside and then leaving the igloo, shall we say, no longer habitable:xSpeaking of Dry Lake, again, ...simonov wrote: It would be nice to have an igloo or two at one's disposal at, say, Dry Lake. Maybe use the forums to sign up to use them.
Kathy Wing got a pic of one there at the end of - March (time flies):
HiresGonna take this one out for a spin this week, or what's left of it:
8)
after a lot of experimentation, this one has proven to be a real winner. A windscreen/ heat exchanger is a necessary. Used it for half a dozen backpacking trips last summer and fall, quite successfully
http://www.csun.edu/~mjurey/penny.html
http://www.csun.edu/~mjurey/penny.html
Pretty slick little do-dadd you got there! 8)eazup wrote:after a lot of experimentation, this one has proven to be a real winner. A windscreen/ heat exchanger is a necessary. Used it for half a dozen backpacking trips last summer and fall, quite successfully
http://www.csun.edu/~mjurey/penny.html