The Station Fire Thread

[MtnMan]

A revised closure should be coming out soon. Basically from lower Charlton Flats to 3 points, and then west through Chilao to Mt. Hillyer/ Alder Saddle will be open for most use. All the campgrounds in the Chilao area, except Little Pines, should also be open, hopefully by Memorial Day.

I haven't heard if any other closed areas will be significantly revised for re-opening.

[Ze Hiker]

So got an update on the closure area. I put it on the website so I could attach the pdf map and docs (wasn't working here).

[HikeUp]

Thanks for posting this Zedman. Looks like Monrovia and Smith are officially open. Twin Peaks still off limits. Nice fucking resolution as usual.

[MtnMan]

Buckhorn Campground is now open for the season. In the Chilao area, Manzanita and Horse Flats will open Friday morning.

[Layne Cantrell]

Buckhorn Campground is now open for the season. In the Chilao area, Manzanita and Horse Flats will open Friday morning.

Whoa, when did Buckhorn open? Mike McIntyre said not until after Memorial Day! Awesome, I've been dying to get up there....

[MtnMan]

Buckhorn opened yesterday.

I hiked to the falls today, and they were flowing really good.

[Layne Cantrell]

Buckhorn opened yesterday.

I hiked to the falls today, and they were flowing really good.

Did you call the forest service to find out? Just curious as to how you knew because I've been obsessing over it since the Station Fire and couldn't get any info outside of Mike McIntyre, who always responds to everything you send him. God bless that guy.

[MtnMan]

Past history has almost always had Buckhorn open around, or the week before Memorial Day.

I've also been keeping tabs on it for a few weeks now from the many acquaintances I have in the USFS .

And lastly, I live, work and play around these areas, so I tend to be pretty tuned into what's going on.

You'd probably be better off getting info like that from Howard Okamoto or Gerry Reponen (818-899-1900 X 229 and x228) for most Recreation matters on the LA District. They are the ones that usually inform the District Ranger on specifics like campground status, etc.

That being said, Mike is a good guy and is usually pretty informed as well, too.

[MtnMan]

Rumor is, the Angeles Forest computer wizards are working on a better resolution of the closure revision map to release.

[Layne Cantrell]

Past history has almost always had Buckhorn open around, or the week before Memorial Day.

I've also been keeping tabs on it for a few weeks now from the many acquaintances I have in the USFS .

And lastly, I live, work and play around these areas, so I tend to be pretty tuned into what's going on.

Same here! Well, the live and play part. I thought Buckhorn usually opened pretty early in April, I guess that was just the last few years.

You'd probably be better off getting info like that from Howard Okamoto or Gerry Reponen (818-899-1900 X 229 and x228) for most Recreation matters on the LA District. They are the ones that usually inform the District Ranger on specifics like campground status, etc.

That being said, Mike is a good guy and is usually pretty informed as well, too.

Thank you thank you thank you for the contact info!

And yeah Mike's the man, his updates during the fire were a lifeline.

[mattmaxon]

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie ... 87833&z=11

I've been swamped with this new Job but I got some time to make a decent map for the closure released on 5/26?

Enjoy!
Matt

[blueshammer]

That is very awesome. Thanks!

[HikeUp]

Thanks Matt!

Here's another map via Modern Hiker.

[EManBevHills]

From the LA Times this morning:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... al+News%29

[Nancy]

We hiked Pacifico a few weeks ago, not realizing it was closed--someone told us that most of the trail was buried, so we took the access road to the top. I heard it was open now, but I can't quite tell from looking at the map.

[AW~]

Idlehour trail remains closed per Los Angeles River Ranger District

[HikeUp]

We hiked Pacifico a few weeks ago, not realizing it was closed--someone told us that most of the trail was buried, so we took the access road to the top. I heard it was open now, but I can't quite tell from looking at the map.

Pacifico is within the closure area.

[Nancy]

Thanks! I can see that finally on the map--I must have been mistaken when I thought it had opened

[PackerGreg]

I've been saying it for quite a few years now, and almost one year on the 'net: Jody Noiron is a corrupt, conniving, lying politician. NOT a forester.

I have heard her speak about the Station Fire several times, and she has always tried to put the blame for the magnitude of the fire on the crazy man that started it. I don't know if that excuse is wearing thin with the public, but obviously it was not enough to answer the questions of this investigation.

So now, just like she tried to deflect blame to the shopping cart-pushing homeless man, she is trying to blame the fire dispatcher. Well, let me tell you, I know the dispatcher that worked on that crucial second day. I don't know him very well, because he is very quiet, but he was my neighbor at Chantry Flat for six years; and I know his wife in the FS. Those people just want to do their job and go home. They don't like to make waves.

To that extent, the dispatcher is not the type to make such major decisions as not ordering aircraft on his own or saying that it's the wrong type of aircraft or the pilots need rest. He just wants to broadcast the orders that he is given. This decision came from Jody. In fact, the dispatcher was very angry and frustrated by the way those first two days of the fire were handled, and he knows why the fire escaped grasp.

The dispatcher is retired now. Not as a result of the Station Fire, it was just time. But, unfortunately, I have reason to believe that he will not speak out - not yet.

[simonov]

Doesn't matter. There will be no accountability. No one is accountable for anything anymore. It's the Brave New America.

[KathyW]

Doesn't matter. There will be no accountability. No one is accountable for anything anymore. It's the Brave New America.

So very true, and so very sad.

What happened to owning up to our mistakes and learning from them?

[AlanK]

Doesn't matter. There will be no accountability. No one is accountable for anything anymore. It's the Brave New America.

So very true, and so very sad.

What happened to owning up to our mistakes and learning from them?

I understand the reaction because mine is quite similar. Except that I don't recall a golden time when everyone was accountable. Think about the shenanigans of the Johnson and Nixon administrations (to pick one example from each major political party that happened quite a while ago but that I can remember). In a case like this, some accountability may be possible, but only if the press and public raise enough hell. Maybe Jody Noiron will end up pulling a Robert McNamara and admit in her old age that it was all screwed up.

[simonov]

I understand the reaction because mine is quite similar. Except that I don't recall a golden time when everyone was accountable.

Oh, I remember a time as recently as 20 years ago when savings & loans were taken over by the government when they threatened to implode the economy, and their shareholders wiped out (when they were lucky enough to stay out of jail).

These days, we make sure people like that collect eight-figure bonuses.

[AlanK]

I understand the reaction because mine is quite similar. Except that I don't recall a golden time when everyone was accountable.

Oh, I remember a time as recently as 20 years ago when savings & loans were taken over by the government when they threatened to implode the economy, and their shareholders wiped out (when they were lucky enough to stay out of jail).

These days, we make sure people like that collect eight-figure bonuses.

Well, yes. Things can always get worse.

[Tim]

Oh, I remember a time as recently as 20 years ago when savings & loans were taken over by the government when they threatened to implode the economy, and their shareholders wiped out (when they were lucky enough to stay out of jail).

Bill Black was the guy who cracked down on the S&L and he says today's problems are the result of outright, pervasive FRAUD. But the government does nothing about it, except to give these crooks even more money.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html

As for the Station Fire, we should remember that two firefighters lost their lives. They're gone, forever and their families won't have them back, forever. Yet the people who in charge who screwed up don't seem to feel any sense of responsibility. In Japan, if you screwed up this badly, you'd probably commit suicide out of respect for those families and honor to yourself. I'm not saying anyone should commit suicide, but obviously no one here has any sense of honor or respect. All we get is a cover-up. At the very least, the people above these people should recognize their incompetence and get rid of them. But that probably won't happen.

[cougarmagic]

The firefighter's report on Camp 16 is drastically different in tone and substance from the "internal investigation" report by the Forest Service.

http://www.fire.lacounty.gov/

I think it's important to make a distinction between responsibility and blame. The Camp 16 report is full of precise detail, frequently mentioning things that they learned, with the emphasis on avoiding the same problems in the future.

Things happened beyond their anticipation and control. Yet they are responsible about it. I don't blame them - I'm proud of them for taking a hard look at what happened.

USFS - just please acknowledge that maybe, just maybe things could have gone better. BP - someone admit that oil rigs really shouldn't blow up like that...that's really all anyone wants.

Instead we get denial, "no comment", BS, and oh yeah - stay off your own land. For how long? Who knows? Here's an unreadable map....

[simonov]

I think it's important to make a distinction between responsibility and blame.

I agree. In fact, I'm a little sick of the modern tendency to find someone to blame, for everything.

But what is irritating about the current case are the continuous prevarications and lies and ass-covering that has characterized the aftermath of the Station Fire until now.

[AlanK]

From the July 5, 2010 LA Times

Thwarting a Station fire spotter

Capt. Perri Hall's narrative, obtained by The Times, contradicts key assertions by the U.S. Forest Service about its response to last summer's devastating Station fire.

By Paul Pringle
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

July 5, 2010

Just after first light, a tactical observation plane took off from its old military base in Hemet for an urgent mission above the cathedral peaks of the Angeles National Forest.

The two-man crew had been deployed to direct an air assault on the few acres of brush still burning on Day 2 of last summer's Station fire, which had been nearly contained the evening before.

As the crew prepared for the arrival of three or more air tankers, conditions appeared good for knocking the blaze down once and for all. Winds were calm, and the sun had yet to rise above the pine-crowned mountaintops to heat the thick carpet of chaparral where the fire had flared overnight.

Capt. Perri Hall, a veteran air attack officer for the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, who was over the blaze minutes before 7 a.m. on Aug. 27, radioed the U.S. Forest Service with the intention of bringing in the tankers, a lead plane and helicopters.

There was no answer.

"I made several attempts to contact someone on the ground … with no luck," Hall recounts in a report. "I then attempted to make contact with [the Angeles National Forest] on the command frequencies."

The minutes were passing.

"I finally was able to make contact … and ask for the lead plane to be started ASAP," he says. "They advise the lead plane would not be available until 0900 hours.

"I then ask to start any air tankers they had and again I was told nothing available until 0900-0930 hours. "I then ask if there were any heli-tankers available and if so get them started. Again I was told nothing available until 0930 hours.

"I gave them a quick report on conditions of 3-4 acres [burning] … with potential of a major fire."

That potential began turning into reality about an hour later. The fire jumped a critical defense line along Angeles Crest Highway and raced through the dried-out scrub and trees, becoming the biggest conflagration in Los Angeles County history. Two county firefighters were killed.

Hall's account of Day 2, a copy of which was obtained by The Times, contradicts key assertions by the Forest Service about its response to the fire. Hall wrote the 1,000-word report soon after the mission, out of frustration and anger at the Forest Service's failure to unleash a more aggressive aerial attack, according to people with knowledge of the situation who requested anonymity because they are not authorized to speak publicly.

The captain's narrative challenges a leading conclusion of the Forest Service's official review of the fire: that an earlier aerial assault on Day 2 would have been ineffective because rough terrain would have prevented ground crews from finishing the job. Hall makes no mention of terrain problems, and it was his responsibility to determine whether the landscape was an impediment to aerial drops.

Despite Hall's expertise and bird's-eye perspective, the Forest Service review team never interviewed him, officials say. His plane had been assigned to the fire at the Forest Service's request.

Former Forest Service officials say Hall's account is crucial to any assessment of the firefight because it was his job to determine when and where aircraft should be used.

In the report, Hall describes how he planned to hit the flames quickly:

"I tried again to contact someone on the ground and [a Forest Service battalion chief] responded back to me. I ask if he had any crews on the fire below the road (eastside of highway) and advised him that if I can get some aircraft I was going to go to work direct as possible on it."

But he could not get the aircraft and watched helplessly as the blaze that had appeared so containable erupted into a disaster:

"As the sun came up from behind the ridge to the east the down canyon wind began to increase and started pushing this new fire parallel to the highway. It began to burn freely on both the north and south end."

Hall writes that a single water-dropping helicopter arrived around 8:15 a.m. — other records indicate it reached the blaze about 25 minutes earlier — but it was far from enough:

"The fire began a good run up a ridge perpendicular to the highway. This run resulted in the fire jumping the highway to the west, into an entirely new drainage south of the original fire from the day before."

The delay in the tanker deployment — one of the Forest Service's own commanders had requested three of the heavy ships about six hours before their scheduled 7 a.m. arrival — has been a central issue in government inquiries into the fire. One, a hearing of local House members convened by Rep. Adam Schiff (D- Burbank), is set for Aug. 10.

Cal Fire spokeswoman Julie Hutchinson referred questions about Hall's account to the Forest Service because it was in charge of the operation that day. A Forest Service spokesman in Washington, D.C., said he relayed questions to local officials for his agency, who did not respond.

The efforts of Hall and others to get aircraft to the fire are also chronicled on recordings of radio communications that the Forest Service provided to The Times under the Freedom of Information Act.

On one recording, a Forest Service officer is heard calling at 3:10 a.m. for confirmation of a request made more than two hours earlier for three tankers and other aircraft to be over the blaze at 7 a.m. He is told that the order had been placed and that the Forest Service is "going to see at morning time if we can get [the aircraft] reassigned from the Morris" fire burning nearby.

At 6:49 a.m., on another recording, an officer asking about the lead plane is informed that it would "hold along with the tankers for now."

The Forest Service has blamed the tardy arrival of the tankers on the need for pilots to rest and a lack of available relief planes. But The Times has reported that according to federal records and state officials, the Forest Service failed to fill the order for tankers that its commander placed shortly before 1 a.m. on Day 2, even though Cal Fire had several of the planes available.

Former Forest Service officials say Hall's account and the recordings seem to confirm that a separate order for the Station fire tankers was never filled and that the agency had instead opted to wait for planes that had been used the day before on the Morris blaze. Those tankers did not begin taking off until after 8:40 a.m.

"The problem wasn't the lack of resources," said former Angeles National Forest Fire Chief Don Feser. "The problem was the lack of will to acquire the resources.... I don't see any real sense of urgency."

Meanwhile, as Hall's narrative continues, he pleads in vain for more planes and other support:

"I made three requests for the DC-10 (Tanker 910) … and all three were denied. I made two requests for a [helicopter coordinator to help manage the attack] with no fill."

The captain relates that when he landed for refueling, he walked into a dispatch center to press his case: "I told them again of the [fire's] potential and the need for more air tankers.

"When we returned to the fire that afternoon, it had doubled in size and was pushing 500-600 acres."

In the coming weeks, it would consume more than 160,000 acres.

paul.pringle@latimes.com

Copyright © 2010, The Los Angeles Times

[Hikin_Jim]

Hmm. I wonder why the Forest Service didn't interview their own aerial coordinator? And why did the USFS report that no planes were available? Can you say "cover up"? If the Forest Supervisor (Noiron?) doesn't get fired, there's just no justice.

HJ

[EManBevHills]

Do I hear a chorus chanting "Off With Her Head"?