Long free hanging rappels -locally-

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:23 pm

My crew and I need to practice some long free hanging rappels before attempting a 580 foot drop

Does anybody out there know of any (legal) place with a long drop that is free or mostly free hanging?

Matt

Post by **Taco** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:02 pm

Waterslide area off Barrett-Stoddard road might do the trick, though it's only about 60ft. You'd want to rapp off the east side of the canyon down into the sport climbing area. That's the best I can come up with at the moment. Are you familiar with the location?

Sheep canyon might also fit the bill, in some spots.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:15 am

TacoDelRio wrote:Waterslide area off Barrett-Stoddard road ... Are you familiar with the location?

No...

TacoDelRio wrote:Sheep canyon might also fit the bill, in some spots.

Yeah that was at the top of my list

Brennen sezs there's a 260ft 3 stage multi-pitch on the headwall

http://www.dankat.com/advents/sheepc.htm

I'm thinking the biggest issue could be the weight of 580ft of rope at the start, then the cascade of changing friction as the weight lessens

Stuff like various bridges in the area would be exactly what's needed but alas it isn't legal

bkk030580 · Post by **bkk030580** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:09 pm

Are you practicing for your first long rap, or do you just need to dust off some rust?

A big concern with that length of rappel is heat. What device will you be using?

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:33 pm

bkk030580 wrote:Are you practicing for your first long rap, or do you just need to dust off some rust?

A big concern with that length of rappel is heat. What device will you be using?

I'm practicing for my first rap of that length....

I'm planning on using a rack I have for this purpose

http://www.rocknrescue.com/acatalog/SMC ... f-Bar.html

I'm have some concerns about adding friction as I descend with 400 or more feet of rope below me

I'm thinking I can do a shorter rap and hang the rope off my rappel rope to simulate the effect

I'm also wondering if I should file for social security before I leave because it will take a while to get down! HA

you'll just keep going and going...

I'll need to lock off and practice passing a knot with this set up too. There is one spot with serious potential to damage the rope (as well as tying one)

Post by **HikeUp** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:22 pm

You mention rapping off of bridges. I've seen SAR teams practicing on various bridges. They must be getting permission or some kind of permit?

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:20 pm

what about the bridge to nowhere?

Post by **Taco** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:38 am

PM sent, Matt.

platypii · Post by **platypii** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:29 am

Cool topic! I'd also be interested in finding the longest free rappel in SoCal just cause I think it would be fun! The first places that came to mind were Bridge to Nowhere (allegedly privately owned) and the Big Tujunga Narrows Bridge (fire closed, probably illegal).

You could maybe find a suitably large tree to climb? That was how I practiced prussiking up and knot passing down. Hard to find a tall enough tree with suitable branches though. If you want to simulate the weight you could have a friend weight the rope. 580ft @ 0.6oz/ft = about 22 pounds.

As far as cliffs, I'm hard pressed to think of any long overhanging cliffs in the san gabriels. From Brennen: White Oak Canyon, "one of the most glorious descents in the San Gabriels as it drops down a dripping, moss-covered face with a 70ft section of exciting free rappel in the dripping water."

There's gotta be a bigger overhanging cliff somewhere, right??

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:26 am

HikeUp wrote:You mention rapping off of bridges. I've seen SAR teams practicing on various bridges. They must be getting permission or some kind of permit?

Yeah I 'm certain they don't get a permit....

Kinda like the cop car on the freeway sailing past you at 90+...

36 CFR 261.54(e) I think allows the forest supervisor write an order prohibiting just about anything on a road within the forest all the Big-T and other forest bridges are posted with this for Bungee Jumping

I don't know what California code section(s) would be used to cite you but I'm sure they'd find something

Probably Trespassing for a start, throw in a disorderly conduct charge, sprinkle a few more on top for effect...

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:32 am

platypii wrote: Bridge to Nowhere (allegedly privately owned)

No it is privately owned.. The Forest Service and County have tried to shut'em down...

platypii wrote: Big Tujunga Narrows Bridge (fire closed, probably illegal).

Check and check

platypii wrote:simulate the weight you could have a friend weight the rope. 580ft @ 0.6oz/ft = about 22 pounds.

That is my fall back position over at Stony Point

Elongation is an issue too since the rope we are using is "Semi-Static" @ 4.8% over 580ft that is 27ft! (18.83 lbs)

The rope I normally use would be 10.4 ft (1.8%, 16.82lbs)

platypii wrote:As far as cliffs, I'm hard pressed to think of any long overhanging cliffs in the san gabriels.

Yeah Chris was my first stop...I've asked some SAR team members I know but no luck...

I was thinking some abandoned power transmission tower in a remote area or a railway bridge where no one can see you

platypii wrote:There's gotta be a bigger overhanging cliff somewhere, right??

well you'd think....

Potrero John Crk has a few nice ones but it's a long way to haul a 200m rope

There is a 300ft drop that is relatively easy to get to near the big one we might try the day before.

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:28 am

Big rap cred is different from free air cred IMO.
That said, free air cred &training in socal is Mildred Falls in San Diego county. Seems far, but less time overall than hiking to many of the local ones and is a top4 socal locale.

There are a lot of free air rappels in the San Gabriels, but most of them are too large for just training. There are 4 in the Big Tujunga canyon area, 3 of those are >300ft free. The other one I know is called E-Falls, which is about 100ft free which is not quite enough. Not good training spots either since the only way to go up is ascending.

East Fork- I like lower Horse canyon as a good training spot. The 'free air' experience is on lower Horse canyon falls. I dont remeber how tall this one off the side is other than thinking my earlier estimate of 50ft was too low. Its got enough free air to make sure one doesnt get away with simply staying close to vertical. Plus the ending calls for stemming which is always fun. But again, this can easily be done without adding any friction so its not sufficient for free air cred.

There are a couple big raps near the bridge to nowhere, the one on private property just before the bridge off the peak, the other just south of BTN canyon, which is impractical besides being gi-normous.

Sheep canyon, the free air is very limited. Much quicker for a larger similiar rap is a canyon called Rockbound close to highway 39. Theres a ridge just left of it one can hike to access the top of the large rap. Near there, Smith E is certainly a tall rappelling route but is closed so.....

East SGs, the only large raps I know is the one off the side of third stream. Theres are a couple large raps in the Devils Punchbowl as well.
West SGs, BigT has several large raps.

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:29 pm

Scratch that on Rockbound...I read over Brennan's beta and might have the location wrong since he lists 1.5 hours of downhill travel to Hwy39. Needs a clarification anyway...uggh.

bkk030580 · Post by **bkk030580** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:23 pm

The place to get beta on long raps is from cavers. There is a SoCal Grotto that meets in Pasadena.

You should be able to add, remove, and space bars on your rack while staying under control. Be sure to practice on short drops, and then longer ones with weight added to the rope. If the rope has a chance of getting wet, I might practice with up to 50 lbs hanging on it. Give attention to your glove choice as well.

The last place I practiced a long, free drop was from a helicopter... so I'm not much help to the general public on practice sites. But it is a good lead in pitch to thinking about joining your local SAR team. Training opportunites abound!

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:42 pm

bkk030580 wrote: You should be able to add, remove, and space bars on your rack while staying under control. Be sure to practice on short drops, and then longer ones with weight added to the rope. If the rope has a chance of getting wet, I might practice with up to 50 lbs hanging on it. Give attention to your glove choice as well.

There is more to it.
And why do people keep on talking about weighting a rope? umm..that adds a bottom belay and only makes it slower or no progress.
If ya want free air cred, shouldnt need any gloves.

bkk030580 · Post by **bkk030580** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:24 pm

The weight on the bottom of the rope in training simulates the weight of the 299ft of rope hanging below your brakehand when you start the real deal. As you go down, that "gravity bottom belay" disappears. If you need to tie off or pass a knot, etc in the middle, you have to know how to deal with all that weight. If you can't stay in control and lift that rope to the top of your rack, you are in trouble.

Starting out, if you only weigh 150lbs, you won't go anywhere with 6 bars and 300 ft of rope, so you also have to know how to start with fewer bars and add as you go down. Racks are great for long drops because of the friction adjustment, but it takes practice to keep a smooth pace and figure out the tricks to getting them to pop in while under weight.

The best "cred" is not getting dead.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:15 pm

bkk030580 wrote:... But it is a good lead in pitch to thinking about joining your local SAR team. Training opportunities abound!

Yeah... I applied in Sierra Madre I supposedly live too far away >30min I make it 27min from my house to Downtown Sierra Madre, less in the real world

Not interested in being a reserve LA County Sheriff deputy for Montrose SAR, Alta Dena or really any other SAR group.

Matt

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:16 pm

bkk030580 wrote: The best "cred" is not getting dead.

Thus as you said, the 'dangerous' part is as you said when there is no bottom belay and the weight is above you.

If you need to wear gloves, you are not using the proper technique for a free air rappel or rappel period...now some people prefer to wear gloves, but if they became unavailable, there is no change in plans.

A better simulation is to lower the friction. Could use a smaller diameter rope or go with less bars than normal. But again, I prefer training for the real deal instead of these simulations.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:17 pm

bkk030580 wrote:The best "cred" is not getting dead.

I couldn't agree more

Post by **Taco** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:14 pm

Oh yeah, there's also a 100-200ft waterfall along Cattle Canyon.

glamisking · Post by **glamisking** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:41 pm

I am surprised nobody mentioned the Riverside Rock Quarry. It is just off the 60 freeway on Valley Way. It is open to climbers as it is a very popular sport climbing location which offers near 200 feet of granite to play with. There is easy access to the top of the cliff from the back and I have rappelled of it numerous times. It is about 180 ft in length with the top 75 feet being vertical and the last 100 some being totally free. And there are bolts with rings at the top. If this interests you I can give up more info.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:45 am

glamisking wrote: If this interests you I can give up more info.

Yes Yes please do....

sounds like it could be it!

bertfivesix · Post by **bertfivesix** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:26 pm

Ah, the quarry.

http://mountainproject.com/v/california ... /105902982

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:51 pm

Be careful if you go. The Quarry isn't in exactly the best part of Riverside (not that any other part is much better, ha!)...

http://mountainproject.com/v/california ... /106430392

Sewellymon · Post by **Sewellymon** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:00 pm

DON'T practice at the Quarry. Loose on top. High risk of knocking rocks. Even on a weekday or if you are "off to the side".

Good luck with your training.

glamisking · Post by **glamisking** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:25 pm

Sewellymon wrote:DON'T practice at the Quarry. Loose on top. High risk of knocking rocks. Even on a weekday or if you are "off to the side".

Good luck with your training.

I would have to disagree about it being loose or dangerous to either yourself or those below. Now I know that some parts are but this section I have done a half dozen times and it is totally clean. It is located pretty much center of the roof and does require some careful scrambling or you can sling a large boulder and rappel down to the ledge with the bolts to set up the primary rappel. I will send you a pm and you can call me, too much work to type everything out.

And as far as parking goes and security I have heard it recommended to park in the residential in order to have a few more eyes on your vehicle.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:08 am

Sewellymon wrote:DON'T practice at the Quarry. Loose on top. High risk of knocking rocks. Even on a weekday or if you are "off to the side".

My FIRST concern is always safety everything else is second

Thanks for the heads up

Caution will be exercised where ever I go for me, my partners and everyone around me

glamisking wrote: I would have to disagree about it being loose or dangerous to either yourself or those below. Now I know that some parts are but this section I have done a half dozen times and it is totally clean. It is located pretty much center of the roof and does require some careful scrambling or you can sling a large boulder and rappel down to the ledge with the bolts to set up the primary rappel. I will send you a pm and you can call me, too much work to type everything out

.

Thanks...Not sure when I'll be going out there, I was hoping to find something closer to home. I live minuets away from the mouth of Big Tujunga Canyon

I was looking at Echo Cliffs in the Santa Monica Mtns

glamisking wrote:And as far as parking goes and security I have heard it recommended to park in the residential in order to have a few more eyes on your vehicle.

I am unfortunately quite familiar with trailhead burglaries. Anyone who parks at trailheads in California anywhere should not leave anything of value in their vehicle.

Big Tujunga is notorious for auto burglaries, where it is wise to leave nothing in your vehicle and the doors unlocked with the windows down.

They have taken to smashing windows to search in trunks

I personally have a Knaack tool box in the bed of my truck which is cabled to the frame of the truck and have the most burglar resistant lock system I know of.

Augie · Post by **Augie** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:49 pm

Matt,

If you find the right spot, let us know how the training went.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:23 am

Augie wrote:If you find the right spot, let us know how the training went.

We did some preliminary training over at Stony Point in an area known as 'Mozart's Wall" on Sunday

It was an eye opener for sure... It did re-enforce my decision to practice practice practice

One problem for our team will be one team member is probably 100lbs soaking wet and dealing with the weight of the rope below is gonna be tough

I'm also thinking I may revert to a full body harness for this drop

I found adding friction nearly impossible, to add bars with the weighted rope is tough.

The rack needs you to pull UP to slow and to do this with a weighted rope is hard. I have been hanging the rope over the tie off bar. That works well until you want to add a bar.

Removing the rope from the tie off bar instantly removes lot of friction and I tended to drop. I saw some real potential to loose control

I suppose I need to rethink this process or rethink the whole rack thing

My first time over the edge I managed to lock the thing up!

But that's why I'm practicing...To see what happens... think about it.. potential problems and solutions BEFORE we do this.

Augie · Post by **Augie** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:36 am

mattmaxon wrote:
We did some preliminary training over at Stony Point in an area known as 'Mozart's Wall" on Sunday

It was an eye opener for sure... It did re-enforce my decision to practice practice practice

One problem for our team will be one team member is probably 100lbs soaking wet and dealing with the weight of the rope below is gonna be tough

I'm also thinking I may revert to a full body harness for this drop

I found adding friction nearly impossible, to add bars with the weighted rope is tough.

The rack needs you to pull UP to slow and to do this with a weighted rope is hard. I have been hanging the rope over the tie off bar. That works well until you want to add a bar.

Removing the rope from the tie off bar instantly removes lot of friction and I tended to drop. I saw some real potential to loose control

I suppose I need to rethink this process or rethink the whole rack thing

My first time over the edge I managed to lock the thing up!

But that's why I'm practicing...To see what happens... think about it.. potential problems and solutions BEFORE we do this.

Thanks for that analysis Matt. Lots of things to think about for a drop like you're planning. As far as full body harness, would it work to use your regular waist harness and a make-shift webbing chest harness or do you need something more elaborate?

Sounds like you need tremendous arm strength to pull up for slowing with your device. Also sounds very iffy if adding friction during this long of a rappel would be "nearly impossible." This alone would make me rethink.

What other options are there for a rap device besides your bar rack?

What do some of the gurus like Rich Carlson and Sonny Lawrence say about these issues?