Upper Fish Fork 6/13/2009

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:04 am

I have often wanted to do this trip and Saturday 6/13/2009 was finally the day!

I spent the night at Lupine Cpgd, surprising there where other campers there. Though not the usual rowdies that frequent the backcountry camps but families with small children ! Wow !

Must be the economy....

My friend Andrew met me at the appointed 7am-ish at the trailhead and we where off.

The old road grade is not difficult to follow nor is it badly overgrown, though the occasional down tree is a pain.

We made Pine Mtn Ridge in short order and the junction of Fish Fork Trail was just minuets ahead.

Great Views of Iron Mtn and Mt Badly where to be had from our vantage point... Along the trail some landslide activity has erased the trail making for a bit of a sketchy traverse over the scree but caution wins the day, there is lots of evidence of Big Horn Sheep here, with scat and urine galore!

The bears are quite active here too with lots of scat, overturned rocks and old snags torn apart.

Past the scree area the trail becomes more faint and the GPS was consulted on several occasions to ensure we where on the trail and not one of the many game trails that crisscross the area.

Despite no maintenance or foot traffic the trail is relatively easy to follow, at least until we got to the trail down to fish fork.

Here it looked as though the trail is a trail that was... We started down the creek scrambling over and under the pick up stick jumble of down alder trees, rocks, boulders, and patches of brambles until we spotted the trail up on the side of the canyon right where it should be! DUH!

It is mostly intact but can be a bit unnerving places but we made Upper Fish Fork trail camp by 10:30am... Didn't look like anybody had been here in quite some time.

Lots of water flowing here nice spot to be sure.

The trip back was mostly uneventful, I was hoping to spot some critters but didn't see a one.

We made it back to the trailhead by 3pm making for a leisurely 8hr day

My GPS indicated 8.4 miles but that seems low. Analysis of the track indicates 10.8-ish miles

Anywho it is a nice trip and I recommended it highly

My photos are here
http://picasaweb.google.com/mattmaxon20 ... oFishFork#

GPX available upon request

Cheers
Matt

Ze Hiker · Post by **Ze Hiker** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:29 pm

very cool. I want to check this area out.

did you park on blue ridge, then hike down to Lupine?

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:01 pm

No No
The road to Lupine is open...

In their infinite wisdom the road to Cabin Flat appears to be closed permanently.

Matt

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:04 pm

Great pics! That whole area looks nice and wild. Definitely a well fed resident bruin or two!

Ze, if you plan a trip there let me know - I'll do the same. I want to see this place too. My activity calendar is pretty booked, but there are a couple of weekend days in July I don't have anything going on. If the weather stays nice, we should go!

Ze Hiker · Post by **Ze Hiker** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:12 am

definitely.

I might be able to end of July (I never have anything concrete until the last minute!). have to figure out what hike to do. I'm going to try to resist to climb Wright, Pine, Dawson, & Baldy....I would like to check out Stanley Miller mine and backpack for one night, but I don't know how feasible it is to hike down Fish Fork to East Fork. I would like to spend some time in that area.

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:41 pm

Matt:
"Upper" Fish Fork is the camp just above the waterfall, yes?

Wish I could remember what it was like there when I was there in the 60's, but alas that's too long ago.

I do remember what it was like in the 80's. Back then, you could still drive up to Pine Mtn Ridge if you had good clearance. I don't think you needed to have a 4x4; just good clearance. The trail down to the trail camps was clear and well maintained. The camps were primitive (not at all like Cooper Canyon, Little Jimmy, and the like), but the tent sites were seeing regular use.

There was a trail going up the west flanks of Dawson, but I think that trail is pretty much gone now. I remember hiking that trail as a kid.

Zé:Because of the waterfall I mentioned (and others downstream), I don't think you can go down Fish Fork to the East Fork -- unless you want to do technical canyoneering.

HJ

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:35 pm

Hikin_Jim wrote:Matt:
"Upper" Fish Fork is the camp just above the waterfall, yes?

Ah no....

See the photos they are geotagged

As the crow flies the falls shown on the map are 2 miles

Another 2 miles straight line to Fish Fork Cpgd

Have you ever seen any photos of the falls?

Cheers
Matt

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:14 pm

mattmaxon wrote:
Hikin_Jim wrote:Matt:
"Upper" Fish Fork is the camp just above the waterfall, yes?
Ah no....

See the photos they are geotagged. As the crow flies the falls shown on the map are 2 miles. Another 2 miles straight line to Fish Fork Cpgd.

Have you ever seen any photos of the falls?

Cheers
Matt

O.K, I'm obviously not saying that right. If you go to Little Fish Fork, that's the uppermost trailcamp and the first that you come to. If you go downstream you come to Upper Fish Fork camp. Even though it's "upper," it's lower than the first trail camp. If you go downstream another half a mile (mile?) from Upper Fish Fork camp, there is a waterfall that blocks all further non-technical progress. That's what I mean by "closest to the waterfall." There are more water falls further downstream I've been told, but I've never been in that section of the canyon. I'm definitely NOT talking about the falls shown on the topo map.

The only view of the waterfall below Upper Fish Fork that I've seen is from the top. I crawled out on my belly as far as I could go and peered over the edge. I could see the water shooting over the edge and out into thin air, but I couldn't see very much. To have crawled any further would have been suicide. There was cool air shooting up the falls on the day I was there. Neat experience.

I'd love to see some pics if you've got 'em.

Did you take a look at the trail to Dawson Pk at all? Good to know the sign post is there at least, but I'm wondering if it's much of a trail anymore.

HJ

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:14 am

HJ
My photos are here
http://picasaweb.google.com/mattmaxon20 ... ToFishFork#

I wasn't aware of the falls near Upper Fish Fork Camp

I knew very little of what to expect, except what was shown on the maps

These camps are not labeled on the maps

As to the trail to Dawson Pk I'd expect it to be in similar condition, faint but "easy" to follow

It may not be obvious to some I suppose and like a forest superhighway to others...A matter of perspective and subjective analysis

Nobody has been out there in years since the fires closed the road to Prairie Fork and they weren't used much before the fires would be my guess

So there will likely be some spots where you gotta look for the correct route

There are a couple trees blocking the trail as you might expect though a bow saw would make short work of the worst of it, a bit of selective lopper work would make a few spots safer to traverse

Oooops gotta go..

Cheers
MAtt

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:42 pm

OK, yes, Upper Fish Fork is the camp I described as "closest to the waterfall." I went down stream from there into the narrows until I could go no further. The canyon necked down to a relatively narrow "U" shape with water pouring over the lip of the "U." I crawled on my belly as far as I could. I could see that the bottom was a ways down, but I couldn't see the face of the falls. Perhaps what I'm calling a waterfall is what Robinson describes as the narrows? It sure seemed like a falls to me.

Hmm. Now you've gotten me really curious. I've been meaning to get back out to that area, and I've been wanting to do what I call a "quick overnighter" (go up Friday night after work, camp out, return the following day). Maybe that's my spot.

I saw your pictures of the two trail camps. What's your general impression? Could two or three one-man tents be set up for the night there in either of the two camps with out too much "site prep?" We'd be coming up after work, so daylight would be limited. Moving a few rocks would be no big deal, but if we have to clear brush and do some shovel work, that probably wouldn't work.

How long was your drive from La Cañada to the trailhead (assuming you took the ACH)? Was it about two hours one-way?

Thanks in advance for any info you might be able to give me,

HJ

Rick Kent · Post by **Rick Kent** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:17 pm

Interesting ... I wonder if there are any other potential raps in there.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:26 pm

Hikin_Jim wrote:I saw your pictures of the two trail camps. What's your general impression?

The camps are not a problem

Traversing the open area (landslide) as you start down could be a bit spooky in the dark. As would route finding

There are a couple spots it would be easy to make a wrong turn.

I wouldn't go down to Upper Fish Fork in the dark. The trail is very faint in places and the drop there is a couple hundred feet

We nearly turned back twice thinking the trail had petered out, but went on around the corner just to have a look.

Little fish fork has two sites, the one with the sign and one a fifty to one hundred yards further on

Hikin_Jim wrote:How long was your drive from La Cañada to the trailhead (assuming you took the ACH)? Was it about two hours one-way?

Yeah about that, though I don't go that way I take Big-T - AFH -Upper Big-T - ACH....

Vehicles without much ground clearance are not recommended below Blue Ridge

Cheers
Matt

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:29 am

mattmaxon wrote:
Hikin_Jim wrote:I saw your pictures of the two trail camps. What's your general impression?
The camps are not a problem

Traversing the open area (landslide) as you start down could be a bit spooky in the dark. As would route finding

There are a couple spots it would be easy to make a wrong turn.

I wouldn't go down to Upper Fish Fork in the dark. The trail is very faint in places and the drop there is a couple hundred feet

We nearly turned back twice thinking the trail had petered out, but went on around the corner just to have a look.

Little fish fork has two sites, the one with the sign and one a fifty to one hundred yards further on

Hikin_Jim wrote:How long was your drive from La Cañada to the trailhead (assuming you took the ACH)? Was it about two hours one-way?
Yeah about that, though I don't go that way I take Big-T - AFH -Upper Big-T - ACH....

Vehicles without much ground clearance are not recommended below Blue Ridge

Cheers
Matt

Hmm. Good points about the darkness and the clearance.

I usually try to time my quick overnighters such that I have an hour of light left by the time I hit the camp site which would be a bit tough in this case since it's a two hour drive after work to the trailhead. I might have to take half a day off.

And the road's pretty rough? Hmm. Didn't really think about that. I need more sleep obviously. The last couple of times I was down there, the road was fine, but that was before they closed the ACH which was some time ago. I wonder if taking it really, really slow with my Accord would work? I've driven on some really poor roads. Then again, maybe I don't want to screw up my car in hard times. It sounds like a 2WD with decent clearance should be OK.

Thanks,

HJ

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:36 am

Rick Kent wrote:Interesting ... I wonder if there are any other potential raps in there.

I imagine there would be. Sounds like Matt's been down that way. Matt?

You could do an interesting loop from the Fish Fork trailhead, down Fish Fork to the East Fork, and then returning via either Pine Mountain Ridge or Prairie Fork.

For those who want it all, start in Wrightwood, go up the Acorn Trail, ascend Wright Mountain, xc down the south ridge of Wright to Blue Ridge Road, then ascend Pine (heck, why not bag Dawson, Baldy, and West Baldy while you're there?), head down the trail (tough to find) to Fish Fork, then do the above described loop, returning to your car from the Lupine area via an XC route up to Blue Ridge Road. Just trying to help out here, you understand.

Richard N. · Post by **Richard N.** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:19 pm

I was at Little Fish Fork with a hiking friend back in October. Our goal for the day was Upper Fish Fork but time was not on our side.
We looked at Matts track and it was exactly as ours except we turned back where the trail disappears in the thickets and took the old trail above. We could see well down to where UFFC is. From looking at his track and where we were, it appears the trail he was on is about 50' below where we turned back.

We are heading back on July 18th to reach UFFC.

Where Jim is talking about falls, they are indeed there. But going towards E. Fork is not advisable at all!! I doubt even Matt would attempt to repel that canyon. From all accounts, its not advisable.

The road to Cabin Flats is closed but one can easily hike there from Lupine. Its a bear going down stream from there, but it can be done if you have a couple of days. I would suggest if anyone is planning to go to the Stanley Miller Mines, come up from the E. Fork RS past the Bridge to Nowhere. It will save you a lot of grief. A LOT OF GRIEF!!!!

Back in the 69' maybe 70, myself and a couple of friends backpacked down the East Fork from Vincent Gap to the E. Fork RS. We spent 3 days in that canyon. Craziest 3 days ever. There were then traces of the trail but knowing what side is went to from time to time was insane back then. I understand much is the same but very overgrown. The camps were not to bad but extremely remote to be sure.

My hiking friend went down from Vincent to the Bridge and back. He was out 15 hours. A lot of night hiking on the way out.

The way most get to the mines these days is to just follow the stream after the bridge. The trail can be found if one want to be persistent.

Look to old topo maps, maybe some new one but the trail is marked on a few.
I still have a map of the Angeles NF from 59' my brother had. It shows places that are long gone today.
It even shows the trail between Stanley Miller Mine to the Allison Mine. But then again, I have a newer map that also shows that trail. Not much is there but I'll bet my last dollar it can be followed in a lot of spots. Unlike the trail from Iron Saddle to the Allison. That was bad in 88' and I know its worse today. Slides and yucca's everywhere then and I saw it 3 years ago and it was almost not visible.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:28 pm

Richard
Thanks for the info...

I am hoping someday soon to go down the Fish Fork

Be assured....It will be done, and done safely

Have you ever seen any photos of any of the falls in the Fish Fork Upper lower or otherwise?

Matt

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:13 am

I was poking around MS virtual earth and found these

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:04 am

Interesting photos. I've tentatively identified July 2 - 3 for a quick overnighter. Looking forward to getting back in there. It's been a while.

Have to see on that road that goes down in. None of my friends has a high clearance vehicle.

Problem with going down a bad dirt road is getting back out. Pretty easy to put 'er in "R" when the going gets rough up hill. 'Tain't necessarily so on an "upside down" road.

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:22 pm

I have been down that road several times in a Honda Civic, and there are ruts but if driven carefully should be no problem. 8)

Richard N. · Post by **Richard N.** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:01 pm

Matt, knowing you I'm sure you will make it in there safely. have fun but plan an overnighter.
I wouldn't be surprised if you were gone more than a couple of days.
No, I haven't seen photo's of the falls.

Jim,
I was up there in October & I doubt I'd take my Subaru in there. Everything in the camp was high clearance.

Maybe Matt can give you a more recent update on the road from Blue Ridge to Lupine.

You can't miss the trail right before the camp. Its one of the old metal signs with the letters cut out. It will be on your left.

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:59 pm

Jim,
I was up there in October & I doubt I'd take my Subaru in there. Everything in the camp was high clearance.

Richard,
that road must have been graded since you were there. I drove that road today,(to Lupine CG) in a Kia Spectra. If you would'nt take your Subaru in there, I'm afraid it's time to turn in the car keys and get a horse.

If your interested in selling the Subbie let me know!
Jim,
I also checked Lupine CG which is in pretty good condition,(ground clearance definately not an issue) actually it is as I remembered it as we hiked by it in May during the Heaton Flat to Wrightwood hike that I posted recently.
I am definately interested in that area, especially below Fish fork camps, and good luck on your trip.

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:02 pm

Richard N. wrote:You can't miss the trail right before the camp. Its one of the old metal signs with the letters cut out. It will be on your left.

Great! Thanks for the photo.

Bill wrote:I drove that road today,(to Lupine CG) in a Kia Spectra.

I also checked Lupine CG which is in pretty good condition,(ground clearance definately not an issue) actually it is as I remembered it as we hiked by it in May during the Heaton Flat to Wrightwood hike that I posted recently.

Is this board cool or what? Thanks, Bill, that's just what I needed. Shooting for July 2 - 3 with an overnighter at LFF or UFF depending on what time I can get off on Thursday.

kgw · Post by **kgw** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:02 am

Bill wrote:

that road must have been graded since you were there. I drove that road today,(to Lupine CG) in a Kia Spectra.
What year and model? I just did a search, and found sedans, hatchbacks, and even some hot rods!

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:40 am

kgw wrote:
Bill wrote:

that road must have been graded since you were there. I drove that road today,(to Lupine CG) in a Kia Spectra.
What year and model? I just did a search, and found sedans, hatchbacks, and even some hot rods!
2003 Kia Spectra 4 door sedan with no bells or whistles (the Flintsone model) I'm thinking those people that mess with vehicles in parking lots would ignor this one, or maybe even break in and leave money out of sympathy

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:26 am

mattmaxon wrote:

Matt:

I was just looking at your track again. Is the old trail to LFF really followable? You guys appear to have just gone down the ridge to the little saddle and then cut down to the old trail to LFF. How was it cutting down from the S trending ridge down to the old trail to LFF? It looks steep.

When I toggle http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=34.31092,-11 ... %2Cunnamed to satellite mode, I can see the old trail to LFF is there, but who knows what shape it's in?

I believe you said things were pretty passible to LFF, yes? But that was for just going down the ridge. Who knows though if I actually tried to follow the old trail? I'm tempted to try to follow the old trail to LFF since I'm going to be carrying an overnight backpack. I don't like scrambling, either up or down, on steep inclines with a full backpack on.

HJ

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:32 am

HJ
Like I said the trail is relatively "easy" to follow to LFF camp

I just wouldn't try to get to UFF in the dark

The section of trail that crosses by the elevation point 7348 has a bit of a landslide that can be crossed with care

Other wise it should be ok
Matt

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:53 am

mattmaxon wrote:HJ
Like I said the trail is relatively "easy" to follow to LFF camp

I just wouldn't try to get to UFF in the dark

The section of trail that crosses by the elevation point 7348 has a bit of a landslide that can be crossed with care

Other wise it should be ok
Matt

I understand what you're saying, but it appears from your track that you didn't take the trail as marked on the topo you posted from about pt. 7348 to about the 7000' countour in the LFF drainage. I take it then that there was some kind of trail that you were following. I was speculating about the condition of the section of trail beyond pt. 7348 to the point where you re-joined the trail that is marked on the topo map that you posted.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:13 am

Hikin_Jim wrote:I understand what you're saying, but it appears from your track that you didn't take the trail as marked on the topo you posted from about pt. 7348 to about the 7000' countour in the LFF drainage. I take it then that there was some kind of trail that you were following. I was speculating about the condition of the section of trail beyond pt. 7348 to the point where you re-joined the trail that is marked on the topo map that you posted.

Yeah
Those trails shown on the map are not all that accurate

The trail "may" have followed the route shown at one time...But things can, do, & will change.

My feeling is the accuracy was not all that good to begin with, I was on the trail, and took care to stay on the trail where ever possible and safe to do.

If you want I can make a file you can upload as a saved track to your garmin GPS

Matt

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:40 pm

mattmaxon wrote:Those trails shown on the map are not all that accurate. The trail "may" have followed the route shown at one time...But things can, do, & will change.

Yeah, you got that right (that the trails aren't all that accurate on the topo). I can see in Satellite mode that there are tracks all over the place.

mattmaxon wrote:...I was on the trail, and took care to stay on the trail where ever possible and safe to do.

Were there switchbacks from the S ridge down to the trail marked on the topo or was it more of a use trail? Or was it just a brushy "catch as catch can" route following the remains of a trail?

mattmaxon wrote:If you want I can make a file you can upload as a saved track to your garmin GPS

I actually don't own a GPS, although it's now on my list since I've been tracing out old trails lately. I'd like to be able to post exactly where said old trails are.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:25 pm

Like I said I felt I was on the trail....

Made every effort to be on what appeared to be the trail

No brush really to speak of

There was a large ponderosa pine down on the trail at the switchback at about 7150ft

There was a small-ish oak down on the trail below there, it appears some (sheep & deer) have dropped down to the Old Road Grade just below here but I/we pushed through and stayed on the trail.

There is the occasional scrub oak growing out on to the trail hence the recommendation to cut this back...

Matt