EISPIRATEN

Next winter I plan on trying out the winter aspects of climbing! The little bit of snow I stepped on last March on my hike up Baldy got me foaming at the mouth to get more.

Need some tips! Where'd you all learn the basics, and the safety aspects? Read about it? Learn from some class? I'm curious!
Any help is appreciated, and, if anyone wants to meet up somewhere after the first snow, to show me around or let me tag along, I'd greatly appreciate it! (I'll have all the gear by then)

I learned on my own. Some of it is common sense that you can figure out by experimenting and practicing first in benign conditions. I also have the book Mountaineering, Freedom of the Hills. There are also some good videos on YouTube showing self-arrest techniques.

The best way is probably to get formal training with a guide company. SMI offers a snow travel course, but it's held in the Sierras. There's also the WTC from the Sierra Club. But even after these courses you'll still need to get out and get experience and practice.

No matter which way you do it, be very cautious and start with easier/safer terrain and conditions before you move up to more difficult stuff.

I'd offer to show people stuff, but I don't think I'm qualified.

Go with me.

To add my stinking opinion:
Most things are a tad over-rated. It really doesn't take that much instruction to get someone safely into the hills, etc etc. I'm obviously not saying things aren't super serious, it's just that some folks think you need 15 years of climbing 5.4 to be able to lead sport climbing, for some reason.

It's all in the head.

Go with me this winter, if you like. I go out alot, on various outings of various natures and difficulties etc etc.

TacoDelRio wrote:Go with me.

LOL, even better!

I'd agree that most of it is common sense and can be figured out. A little direction from a book/video/friend is even better. After all, my thick head managed to do it. But people do so many silly things on Baldy, the lack of common sense kinda scares me.

We all learn in different ways. I learned about crampons after falling for 1/4 down an icy slope on Thunder Mountain. Sounds like a cheap amusement park ride.

This winter, as always, I'll post up plans for various things. I enjoy company, so long as you don't forget too much stuff (gear, water), etc.

After all, we only do this stuff because it's FUN. Doing it right means it's twice as fun, because you don't need to explain why your clothes are bloody and torn, or the bill for the hospital etc etc.

It is super easy!

Funyan005, you have come to the right place. Most of the people on this board seem to be more active in the winter.

Thanks to this board, I started winter mountaineering just this year and I love it.

To support to some extent what Taco Del Rio said, I think winter mountaineering is made to sound a lot more hazardous than it really is. I was taking a guy up Baldy in February (yep, I'd done it a couple times, and already I'm taking other people up) and I reflected how in fact it's easier to climb Baldy in the winter. The only major difference, safety-wise, between climbing in winter and summer is the consequences of a fall. In the summer you might fall a couple dozen feet off the trail and, at worst, break something. In the winter you can start sliding down an ice slope, accelerating at 32 feet per second per second until you are stopped by a rock or a tree a thousand feet down. So the take-away from that is, try not to fall (and practice self-arrest, though from what I read even experienced climbers rarely get the self-arrest right when it counts).

There are other dangers, mostly associated with the weather. A sudden storm that, in the summer, can cause a miserable overnight experience can kill you in the winter. And finding yourself in a white-out situation with no navigation skills can be deadly as well.

But all these things are just areas of special concern and attention. In the winter, you are just more careful about falling, the weather, your clothing, etc. The actual business of walking ranges from very hard (postholing) to super-easy (crampons on crusty snowpack). I still reckon you are taking a greater risk driving on the freeway to the trailhead than hiking in the snow.

As it gets colder there will no doubt be many snow hikes in the San Gabriels, as well as San Gorgonio and San Jacinto, announced on this board. Just watch and learn.

Winter in the local mountains is wonderful - cooler temperatures, less smog, less crowds, and the scenery is beautiful. In the Sierra it is sometimes better to wait until spring when the snow consolidates to head out due to the danger of avalanches.

I've taken a couple of snow skill classes and they helped, but just going out and enjoying the snow helps - when it doesn't feel right, turn around and remember that conditions might change fast in the winter - that nice soft snow you climbed up might be icy on the way down, so be prepared.

If you've been up Baldy in the winter, try San Gorgonio next.

Tim wrote:There's also the WTC from the Sierra Club. But even after these courses you'll still need to get out and get experience and practice.

+1 on WTC. The Sierra Club's WTC course is really good, and when compared to other classes, really cheap. All of the instructors are voluneers which saves you heap big $$'s. It's a fairly comprehensive course, covering far more than winter travel alone. I took it 'cause a friend of mine really wanted to do it, and because I was interested in the snow travel and snow camping sections. I was pleasantly surprised to get a lot out of the navigation section and the rock climbing (class 3 only) section.

The snowshoe backpack trip was really fun, and it's nice to have a solid idea of what one really needs to go snow camping.

It's a bit of a time commitment, but I found it quite worthwhile. Check it out at http://angeles.sierraclub.org/wtc

Because of liability issues, WTC no longer teaches class 4 and 5 rock climbing, self arrest, and general ice axe and crampon use. Those you have to pick up elsewhere, but WTC does give you a good base upon which to build. Hikin' Jim says "check it out."

Yeah, its over-rated, real easy....just go for it...

" fell down kinda hard due to not being able to see any rocks under the crappy snow. Too slippery for boots, and uneasy with crampons..Took me an hour plus to move about 100 meters"

"Training on weekends might not be enough for winter mountaineering"
among other "issues"

"I traversed on the scariest ice I've ever encountered -- my crampons didn't even leave marks"

"Turns out, his buddy took a header down the east bowl, down that main draw that points directly to the summit of Harwood"

"Big old black rock. Heard it coming, called it out, and it just had to hit me in the arm"

"Neato avy debris that was hard and easy to walk on, but offered little for axe spikes to hold onto"

"After a nice break at the ski hut, and getting a better look at the bowl, I decide to head straight up the center. (that was my first mistake for the day.)"

????

Did I say something that could be mis-interpreted? I'm sure I'm just getting mad over nothing, but seriously...

Maybe I'm hard to understand on the internet.

I just want to make sure I know what people mean online, before I mis-understand anyone.

I'll wait a while before I respond.

Taco I hope you do mean that I can follow you around! I need someone to show me the ropes! If that Sierra club WTC doesn't teach you crampons/ice axe all that good stuff, I'm looking for that.

Another concern, how hard is it to go up the Baldy bowl in the winter? Is it compareable to any other hikes? steepness wise I mean. Does it take more energy/time?

Also thanks to those who answered! I'm sure I'll have tons of questions between now and...December! As well as crampon purchases/ice axe/backpack and all that lovely new gear I'll need(my lady is already dreading these purchases).

Arright.

I don't mind at all if you come along. I feel I could help you out with relevant subjects.

I reckon I understand AW's post. There are obviously dangers involved in this hobby/sport/deal. By saying it's super easy, I mean all ya gotta do is "go". You go, learn, etc., and it's mentally rather easy. I don't mean there aren't times when things can obviously go bad. I train very hard to avoid the bad things so I can enjoy the good things, like being in a place where folks don't go, and seeing amazing sunsets and terrain, and completing or working on tough climbs that don't make me tired, they TEST me. Lack of danger typically leaves your senses dull.

As with anything and everything else in life, there are tradeoffs, etc etc etc.


About Baldy Bowl:
It's not really "harder", per se. It's like Register Ridge, maybe? It always seems to last too long, as it doesn't look very big from pretty much any angle except on Harwood. It feels harder to me than some technically harder climbs in a way, because it's the same thing the entire time, just plugging away. I'll tell ya, if you do it often, you'll get stronger. It's the best way to go for the summit in winter for physical training.

For me, it just seems to last forever.

I read that the same way taco. One of those is a quote from one my trip reports.

I was reminded recently from a high interest accident that 'easy' can be deceiving and I guess you were on the receiving end TDR.....I hope it wasnt interpreted as me saying anyone is reckless or a stupid knucklehead...I like the enthusiam, but seems the discussion was getting ahead of itself. Just something I felt was missing, hard to explain.

I understand.

Whenever I mean easy, I mean you just do it, basically. Hard to explain, and I to am left feeling there's more to say. I feel though that I would rather have others experience it so they can really learn it, though preferably in a semi-safe manner.

After having almost killed myself several times by going out ill equipped and with no skills I took some classes by the now long defunct Backpacker Shop in Claremont. I found I liked winter stuff better...less problems with water and heat. I went on lots of Sierra Club Angeles Chapter outings (free), took their BMTC course and soon became more confident in venturing out on harder stuff.

I believe Baldy Bowl is one of the best places locally to practice arrest skills when it has good snow coverage (just like in skiing, first snow does not cut it). Many times we would spend the weekend just practicing arrests going higher up the slope as we gained experience. After a few years I would take new people up (that's how many people learn). Even with 39 years of experience, I still like to refresh my arrest skills when the opportunity presents itself. A problem I've seen people have with taking a class is after the class you are on your own where as if you learn from others like say Taco (and make friends), you always have them to go with.

Now for a few words of caution, I have had to recover several people killed and injured from slips in the winter over the years. An awful lot of people walking with ski poles, ice ax and or crampons make it home safely because they "lucked out". No problem as long as you don't slip. Arrest has to be quick, done right and instinctive. I would equate it to rock climbing 4th or 5th class without a rope.

Rick M wrote:I would equate it to rock climbing 4th or 5th class without a rope.

HAVE FUN! (FIGHT ON waves from a trail with no snow!) ((with hiking poles!!))

Rick?! Is that really you? Where ya been and watcha been up to?

To say it's "easy" means different things to different people. To those here that get out on the mountain often in winter, it's "easy." This should not be construed to mean that the casual hiker from flatlands will find it either "easy" or "safe." As was pointed out, on snow and ice a fall can quickly become fatal if not prepared. I think we need to be careful on a public board like this not to lead casual outdoor users to become complacent about steep snow and ice. That said, they likewise should be encouraged to get out and do it, preferably with a class or an experienced climber. And thanks to Taco and others for offering to climb with others.

asabat wrote:To say it's "easy" means different things to different people. To those here that get out on the mountain often in winter, it's "easy." This should not be construed to mean that the casual hiker from flatlands will find it either "easy" or "safe." As was pointed out, on snow and ice a fall can quickly become fatal if not prepared. I think we need to be careful on a public board like this not to lead casual outdoor users to become complacent about steep snow and ice. That said, they likewise should be encouraged to get out and do it, preferably with a class or an experienced climber. And thanks to Taco and others for offering to climb with others.

I'm the only one who reads all these posts and I ain't never gonna go on snow so not to worry.
I see your point though.
I was on a different message board and the topic was measures to be taken to be safe on a hike. Being responsible etc. One poster stated that his experience was such that he had no need for being responsible. I had similar thoughts.