EISPIRATEN

Posted a trip report over on summitpost about this hike:

http://www.summitpost.org/trip-report/4 ... river.html

Long Day - ~19miles at 11hours 20minutes (plus 5.5 hours total car shuttle)

Gusto

Sounds like a really cool hike!!!! Just sucks about the car shuttle though .....Just think if Caltrans could ever secure funding to fix highway 39 and highway 2 we would have direct access between the two trailheads.... but too bad it's never actually going to happen!!!!!!!

wow. I've never been in that area. sounds like a different world. how do you make your pictures bigger?

FIGHT ON wrote:wow. I've never been in that area. sounds like a different world. how do you make your pictures bigger?

All the pics have to be sized down to under 75kb or something, so making them larger will probably get them pretty pixelated.

Like the photo of the bear print Good TR.

Top stuff, MC.

Cool bear prints!

brian90620 wrote: .....Just think if Caltrans could ever secure funding to fix highway 39 and highway 2 we would have direct access between the two trailheads....

Yeah, but easier driving access means every jackass drives up and trashes the place or breaks into your car.

406 wrote:

brian90620 wrote: .....Just think if Caltrans could ever secure funding to fix highway 39 and highway 2 we would have direct access between the two trailheads....

Yeah, but easier driving access means every jackass drives up and trashes the place or breaks into your car.

That actually brings up a point I forgot to mention in my trip report. I was really surprised at just how much trash we encountered during the hike. Lots of old sleeping bags, vests, pails, water bottles, one shotgun shell, a shoe, just loads of crap.

This even multiplied once we got back over to the East Fork Trailhead where the entire outhouse had grafity all over it, and trash was scattered about. It's crazy how different people view "enjoying" the "wilderness."

My buddy and I were talking about how much more convenient the car shuttle would have been if the actual highway had been completed up the East Fork, but that obviously would have greatly decreased the "isolation factor."



Some parts, or rather nearly all of the northern reaches of the East Fork, felt more like people shouldn't be there at all. Leave it for the animals. We should try and do this more often...

Gusto

Its as bad as it has ever been since Ive seen it...I think the July 4th holiday was very punishing to the place. We'll see about Labor day, last year was bad, but they had a lot of employees tackling it. Also new was a large number of built dams to build pooling of the water. I think I saw like 5 viewing from just near the trailhead alone.

Also, Cattle Canyon had received a new round of serious trashing/graffiti.

I was just thinking of that from "Monkey canyon" as it being called these times...the east fork doesnt look as bad, only because they cover over graffiti.

The trash is mostly left by, I believe, gold miners. The E Fork of the SG river was a hubub of mining activity in the late 1800's, including an entire town, Eldoradoville, near the current site of the E Fork Ranger Station.

I've seen people working the digs there over the years including elaborate sluice boxes and other sophisticated means, and I think mining has been increasing lately with the price of gold going up and the economy not doing so well. Unfortunately the mining crowd hasn't been reading the latest LNT publications, and they carry a lot of "heavy crap" type equipment, the cheap stuff that you can get at a Walmart or Big 5. Cheap and heavy often results in leaving stuff behind when you leave.

Thank God the upper reaches are as remote as they are, otherwise there'd be even more crap.

http://www.dailybulletin.com/ci_9804427

About 30,000 people flocked into the San Gabriel Canyon over the Independence Day weekend, officials said, trading the hot city streets for the cool waters of the San Gabriel River.
Children splashed in the river along East Fork Road above Azusa on Sunday as their parents cooked food on barbecue grills.

"This is our busiest holiday weekend," said U.S. Forest Service Resource Officer Karen Fortus.

San Gabriel Canyon Road was shut down Friday afternoon, blocking access to the canyon, which had reached its capacity, Fortus said.

On Saturday and Sunday, she said, the canyon was brimming with visitors, but road closures were not necessary.

With temperatures in the San Gabriel Valley climbing into the mid-80s on Saturday and Sunday, and the low 90s on Friday, according to the National Weather Service, most visitors said they were drawn to the forest by the cool waters of the San Gabriel River.

"It just feels so clean," said 26-year-old Liora Zavaleta, who traveled with her family and boyfriend from Los Angeles to spend the day on the riverbank. "It's pretty healing."

Gladys Rubio of Los Angeles camped out in tents Saturday night with her husband, children and other family members.

"The kids have been playing in the water all day," she said.

The smell of carne asada and chicken rose from the family's barbecue grill.

"We do this like once a year," Rubio said.

Over all, Fortus said, the busy weekend went very well, with few incidents reported. California Highway Patrol officials reported they made several DUI arrests in the canyon over the weekend, but responded to no major crashes on the winding mountain roads.

The biggest problem, Fortus said, is the trash visitors leave behind in the forest.

"Oh my gosh, it's terrible," she said of the abandoned junk left on the riverbank.

Volunteers handed out trash bags over the weekend to visitors and asked them to leave their garbage on the road near trash bins.

Many river visitors said they much prefer the shores of the San Gabriel River to the beach.

"(The beach) is hot. The sand's hot. There's too many people," Joey Sermeno of Fullerton said from his folding chair on the riverbank. "It's polluted, too."

Diego Segura of Montebello, who was at the river with friends and family, said he believes the San Gabriel River is a safer place for kids to play than the beach.

"You don't have to worry about the kids getting swallowed up by the ocean," he said

It baffles me that rivers are so popular and rare in southern California, yet get so trashed and aren't properly protected by the government . I participated in the Lower Kern clean up this last weekend...photos below show the trash the group I was with picked up along ~8 miles of river.



Crazy. Second photo was unloaded from the empty rafts shown in the first.

Now there is a job for a ranger that I would support. Giving out seriously expensive tickets for littering instead of the adventure pass job.

Or how about Community Service -- picking up trash in the area they littered in. Not that's justice.

Hikin_Jim wrote:Or how about Community Service -- picking up trash in the area they littered in. Not that's justice.

Yeah. good idea! Do that in addition to the hefty fine! That will make em think twice before they litter again. Pay Rangers extra to go to the hot spots with a video as proof. It would be expensive but the fines would pay for it. and the result would be WAY LESS LITTERING.
If ONLY I was ARNOLD.

If I had a say, first and foremost I would want the car vandals caught....most frustrating is stuff like..
http://www.socaltrailriders.org/forum/t ... ilson.html

cant even get out to see the trash without a car being trashed..jeez.

This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas. It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.

Kit Fox wrote:This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas.

I am a US citizen and I don't like the idea of having to carry around a passport to travel in my own country! That idea will go nowhere.

Kit Fox wrote:It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.

I assume that you are claiming that 99% of the damage is done by people who are in the country illegally. I'd love to see some evidence for that claim! Or do we just get to make any blanket statements we want as long as we preface them with "it's no secret."

One of our boyscout from troop 185 of Duarte had his Eagle service project about 4 weeks ago at East Fork, that they built and plant 4 signs with the "adventure pass" picture. There were so overcrowded. Saw lots of trash and lots of six-packs, and strange people.

Talked to the in-charged Ranger Mike, and he said that the signs that we put up today may not even be there the next day in that area. Lets not talk about rangers give out citations to literers. The rangers are overwhelm with what is going on in that area.

On the other hand, nice wild trip report. I believe that Christopher Brennen rambled through this same trail with his MOUNTAIN BIKE on his back in this story:
http://caltechbook.library.caltech.edu/ ... y/wild.htm

AW wrote:If I had a say, first and foremost I would want the car vandals caught....most frustrating is stuff like..
http://www.socaltrailriders.org/forum/t ... ilson.html

cant even get out to see the trash without a car being trashed..jeez.

Crap! That really sux. Colby and Eaton Saddle are popular trailheads that I frequent. I've learned to stay away from anything along the San Gabriel River (E or W Fork), but this is dismaying.

Now if only we could plant some food on this guy and train the Black Bears to come 'round when he does ...

Kit Fox wrote:This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas. It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.

Why are you afraid of spelling out what you mean? You are trying to say that 99% of the damage is done by Hispanics, right? People like board member Friendowl. Why do you feel the need to dance around the issue?

Since you have brought it up, let's look more closely at this. First, most Hispanics in the LA area are not illegal immigrants at all. Big surprise, huh? Something like a third or more of the population of the LA area is Hispanic, mostly gen-u-wine Americans. And if they are naturalized Americans, guess what? They probably have passports! Which is more than 75% of pasty-faced white non-Hispanic Americans can say.

Next, if it is really Hispanics that are causing the problems (and I actually agree with you that it probably is, them and their white trash co-recreationists), why do you think it is happening? I'll tell you why, it's because they haven't been trained not to. In most of the third world people toss all their trash on the ground. You need a big fat middle class before you start worrying about stuff like litter.

Here's a dirty little secret about trash and litter in this country: until about 50 years or so ago, everyone in America, even pasty-faced gen-u-wine white people, used to leave all their trash laying around. Many parts of the backcountry looked like a landfill. And why did this change? Because Americans were trained not to litter during the sixties and seventies.

Just as the children of immigrants are being trained now, as they become assimilated into American culture and values. Unless, that is, idiot anti-immigrant types succeed in getting them kicked out of schools.

But your passport idea invites some consideration. That will ensure that the backcountry will above all be reserved for people like me, my French wife and all those Koreans and other naturalized immigrants who almost certainly have passports, and keep the white trash non-passport-bearing riff-raff out!

everyone litters in some way or another..
my fellow mexicans are the majority down by the river
and yes they do leave lots of trash...but most people
do clean up after themselves..even mexicans like a clean river
its just that you add in the little kids who dont know better
and the wind blowing shit all over and then there is a shortage of trash
cans and trash pickup is not very fast so of course things get dirty

at fellows camp in azuza i once witnessed a female [caucasian]
reach into her underwear and pull out a tampon which she then threw in the river...we got into a huge argument and i was aked to leave before the police showed up..her car keys are somewhere up there under all that mess...

simonov wrote:

Kit Fox wrote:This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas. It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.

Why are you afraid of spelling out what you mean? You are trying to say that 99% of the damage is done by Hispanics, right? People like board member Friendowl. Why do you feel the need to dance around the issue?

"Ignorance can be cured with education, but stupidity is forever."

In ten years i've seen one group do most of the damage in my favorite recreation area Big Rock Creek. Hispanic isn't a term that most of them use. Most of them don't come from Spain, they come from Mexico and South America.

I never lumped Friendowl with those that trash the rivers, you did. I happen to observe most damage being done by one group. On an interesting side note, during the 90s most of the damage and trash I observed in the old Forest service shooting ranges was from caucasions shooters.

There are dirtbags in all groups. Where I work, visitors of the immigration detainees often placed their feces covered toilet paper in the trash, rather than flush it in the toilet. I inquired about the practice, and it is standard procedure in Mexico / South America where the sewer system can't handle the paper. This is proof that some of these immigrants have not been informed of santation procedures used here in America.

Since you have brought it up, let's look more closely at this. First, most Hispanics in the LA area are not illegal immigrants at all. Big surprise, huh? Something like a third or more of the population of the LA area is Hispanic, mostly gen-u-wine Americans. And if they are naturalized Americans, guess what? They probably have passports! Which is more than 75% of pasty-faced white non-Hispanic Americans can say.

I've spent 11 years working with immigration detainees, and with the Dept of ICE. Can you prove your assesment that most of what you call hispanics. A fair number in 1996 was two million illegals. I have no doubt the number has quadrupled since that time. Check out Immigration Counters dot com.

Next, if it is really Hispanics that are causing the problems (and I actually agree with you that it probably is, them and their white trash co-recreationists), why do you think it is happening? I'll tell you why, it's because they haven't been trained not to. In most of the third world people toss all their trash on the ground. You need a big fat middle class before you start worrying about stuff like litter.

Bingo!!!! Remember when Bill Cosby stepped up and told black people to learn how to speak English, and to take care of their kids? Where are the so-called "hispanic leaders" to speak up and discourage the trashing or rivers, discourage their kids from tagging the rocks (most grafitti I see is from Latin gangs)

The main reason i've observed my favorite area being trashed is lack of enforcement. Too few Rangers, and too far away for Palmdale Sheriff to bother. This means the area is un-patrolled, and it is a virtual free for all.

Here's a dirty little secret about trash and litter in this country: until about 50 years or so ago, everyone in America, even pasty-faced gen-u-wine white people, used to leave all their trash laying around. Many parts of the backcountry looked like a landfill. And why did this change? Because Americans were trained not to litter during the sixties and seventies.

Perhaps we need a Spanish Version of Leave No Trace?

Just as the children of immigrants are being trained now, as they become assimilated into American culture and values. Unless, that is, idiot anti-immigrant types succeed in getting them kicked out of schools.

So if you are against the unfettered flow of illegal immigrants, you are an idiot? Nice

But your passport idea invites some consideration. That will ensure that the backcountry will above all be reserved for people like me, my French wife and all those Koreans and other naturalized immigrants who almost certainly have passports, and keep the white trash non-passport-bearing riff-raff out!

I would take it a step further and require proof of being a taxpayer, who actually pays for the maintanence and upkeep of said recreational areas.

friendowl wrote:everyone litters in some way or another..
my fellow mexicans are the majority down by the river
and yes they do leave lots of trash...but most people
do clean up after themselves..even mexicans like a clean river
its just that you add in the little kids who dont know better
and the wind blowing shit all over and then there is a shortage of trash
cans and trash pickup is not very fast so of course things get dirty

at fellows camp in azuza i once witnessed a female [caucasian]
reach into her underwear and pull out a tampon which she then threw in the river...we got into a huge argument and i was aked to leave before the police showed up..her car keys are somewhere up there under all that mess...

I commend you for confronting the dirtbag lady. I have noticed trash being bagged up and left under trees, at least they tried to clean-up a bit. i've also noticed the shortage of trash cans.

Kit Fox wrote:

simonov wrote:

Kit Fox wrote:This is why I suggested requiring proof of citizenship, or a valid passport before entering the forest recreational areas. It is no secret that 99% of the damage to these areas is by one group.

Why are you afraid of spelling out what you mean? You are trying to say that 99% of the damage is done by Hispanics, right? People like board member Friendowl. Why do you feel the need to dance around the issue?

"Ignorance can be cured with education, but stupidity is forever."

In ten years i've seen one group do most of the damage in my favorite recreation area Big Rock Creek. Hispanic isn't a term that most of them use. Most of them don't come from Spain, they come from Mexico and South America.

Yeah, speaking of ignorance (and stupidity).

His·pan·ic (hĭ-spăn'ĭk) pronunciation
adj.

1. Of or relating to Spain or Spanish-speaking Latin America.
2. Of or relating to a Spanish-speaking people or culture.

n.

1. A Spanish-speaking person.
2. A U.S. citizen or resident of Latin-American or Spanish descent.

http://www.answers.com/hispanic

Looking forward to the day when we have to take copies of our 1040s everywhere we go in the mountains!

It's no secret that most of the people who paint graffiti on rocks, throw trash in the rivers, and otherwise screw up our wilderness areas are US citizens who would not be caught by passport checks.

It's no secret that many hardworking US citizens are not taxpayers. If only taxpayers are to be admitted to the wilderness, my son and a lot of his friends would be excluded. My son not only packs out what he takes in, he picks up other peoples' trash, does trail building and maintenance, and otherwise contributes in a positive way to the wilderness.

I'd love to see the wilderness kept free of people who trash it. these are not ways to accomplish that.

simonov wrote:

Kit Fox wrote:

simonov wrote: Why are you afraid of spelling out what you mean? You are trying to say that 99% of the damage is done by Hispanics, right? People like board member Friendowl. Why do you feel the need to dance around the issue?

"Ignorance can be cured with education, but stupidity is forever."

In ten years i've seen one group do most of the damage in my favorite recreation area Big Rock Creek. Hispanic isn't a term that most of them use. Most of them don't come from Spain, they come from Mexico and South America.

Yeah, speaking of ignorance (and stupidity).

His·pan·ic (hĭ-spăn'ĭk) pronunciation
adj.

1. Of or relating to Spain or Spanish-speaking Latin America.
2. Of or relating to a Spanish-speaking people or culture.

n.

1. A Spanish-speaking person.
2. A U.S. citizen or resident of Latin-American or Spanish descent.

http://www.answers.com/hispanic

Tell that to a Mexican or a Mexican American, they will disagree greatly with that definition. They prefer to be called Mexicans, and some even accept being called Latinos. I don't have the time or inclination to ask the river trashers what their origin is.

"For some Americans whose heritage lies south of the border, that one word -- "Hispanic" -- carries with it the baggage of centuries of Spanish conquest and cruelty in the Americas."


http://www.mexica-movement.org/

I will not respond to a government created name like Hispanic. To use such a word only perpetuates what many white people believe....That is that all "hispanics" are the same. I am an American first but my roots are Mexican not hispanic. To use the word hispanic as many of my white friends do would imply that someone from Argentina is the same as someone from Puerto Rico and the same as someone from Mexico. The spanish we speak is different as well as food and customs. A patient of mine who is white recently asked if I was hispanic to which I replied, "no, I'm Mexican". I then asked her where her family was from. Using her logic as it applied to me meant she should have answered European. Her answer was much more specific as she said she was Scotch-Irish. My question to her was why she specifically noted her ancestry as coming from two small and very specific areas whereas she is very comfortable with lumping me in a big pile of countries stretching from the Texas border all the way to the tip of South America. Titles of magazines such as yours only helps people as this with their ignorance that we're all the same. As far as that other texas girl from Taft I'm sure she would much rather have been called "that dirty little hispanic".

Looking forward to the day when we have to take copies of our 1040s everywhere we go in the mountains!

Enjoy the diapers and grafitti because it will get worse before it gets any better.

AlanK wrote:It's no secret that most of the people who paint graffiti on rocks, throw trash in the rivers, and otherwise screw up our wilderness areas are US citizens who would not be caught by passport checks.

It's no secret that many hardworking US citizens are not taxpayers. If only taxpayers are to be admitted to the wilderness, my son and a lot of his friends would be excluded. My son not only packs out what he takes in, he picks up other peoples' trash, does trail building and maintenance, and otherwise contributes in a positive way to the wilderness.

I'd love to see the wilderness kept free of people who trash it. these are not ways to accomplish that.

Then come up with a better way to fund stepped up patrols and law enforcement in recreational areas. Blaming Bush for a small Forest Service Budget won't help.

How many of you guys take the time to photograph the offenders illegally parking, using barbeques in "no fire zones," or trashing an otherwise pristine area?


Perhaps entrance to recreation areas could be denied until a test has been taken with a passing grade? Knowledge of Forest Services rules, State and Federal laws, understanding the principles of LNT would be required to gain entrance.

I'm sure this will weed out those who can't read.

I've yet to see the Forest Service ever post signs in Spanish telling people not to defecate /urinate in the riverbed, and not to leave trash lying around.

If they posted signs like that, the militant liberals would cry racism. Doing nothing wont fix the problem.

Kit Fox wrote:Perhaps we need a Spanish Version of Leave No Trace?

http://lnt.org/programs/en_espanol.php