EISPIRATEN

Okay, the recent trip reports up snow-capped Baldy have really made me want to get up there this winter. The problem is that I've done minimal hiking in winter conditions... I've done Ontario Peak after a light snowfall, covered in snow past the Icehouse saddle, some parts icy but nothing I couldn't get past in my regular boots... Have done some hikes in heavy snow, but nothing more than stuff like the Devil's Chair where there really isn't any climbing or elevation gain involved...

The obvious question is, what's required to climb Baldy in the winter? Full-on crampons and ice axe? Would microcrampons (http://www.kahtoola.com/microspikes.php) and poles cut it?

I've done Baldy via several routes enough times to know my way around, but I'd imagine it's an entirely different beast this time of year. Are the regular trails completely covered? Just hope someone was up before you that morning and follow their prints?

Any and all advice is appreciated.

You could start the way I and at least a couple other members of this forum started: go up with another forum member. Once you have done it one time, you won't have any trouble navigating by yourself later.

Crampons and ice axe are not really required, since I have been up there with people who just booted their way to the top, but they are highly recommended.

Generally what we do with n00bs is escort them to the Ski Hut, then spend some time with ice axe and self-arrest practice before continuing to the top. You won't be an expert after a half hour or so of practice, but you probably won't be one after three years, either. You mostly need to understand the basics; it will take time and practice to make it second nature (if it ever does).

Before starting out with friends, get a copy of Mountaineering, the Freedom of the Hills and read the relevant chapters on snow travel. There are also some videos on self-arrest on YouTube. You can rent crampons at REI, but will have to buy or borrow an ice axe.

Fritz took me up for my first time, and I have since taken another friend up for her first time.

If you are in the least bit interested you should definitely try it. Winter is my preferred season for climbing Baldy and I know several other people who feel the same way. It's actually easier in some respects. Also, being comfortable moving over snow will extend your hiking season and allow you to climb to more places.

There shouldn't be any routefinding issues on a mountain that is as heavily used as Baldy. There will be a pretty well defined boot track almost immediately after any storm.

If you follow the regular ski-hut trail to the top (as opposed to going up the Baldy Bowl from the ski-hut), you won't need an ice axe and maybe not even crampons. But, it's a great place to practice with both. The lower part of the Baldy Bowl is actually a pretty good place to practice ice axe arrest. However, be very aware of rockfall coming down the bowl!!

Walking in crampons is not rocket science. Just get up there and do it. You can look in Freedom of the Hills for ice axe arrest techniques or even search out videos on Youtube. For your first winter climb, just follow all the boot tracks where the regular summer ski-hut trail goes. IMO, there is not much danger of a serious fall there that would require an ice axe arrest so crampons and poles would be sufficient.

Good luck!

What Simonov said.

All depends on conditions. I'd go with some good waterproof boots, whatever you've got already probably does the job. Add gaiters, strap crampons, and an axe. Learn to self-arrest in all positions you could fall in. Viola! 8)

I decided to go up Bear Flat this morning. Conditions were good until around 12:00, where they started getting nasty with snow and freezing on the trail. Two guys I was following up decided to come back down after encountering what they said was an icy ridge about 3/4 mile from the summit. They also said there were large snow chunks rolling down the trail at them. None of us were equipped with crampons or ice axes. Since they beat me to the spot they seemed to think my trekking poles would help me get up the ridge, so I pressed on.

I have no mountaineering experience, and have never had an experience like I did today. I started up a ridge (not knowing this was the one they were talking about), and about half way up I noticed the snow was frozen. No sooner had I realized this as my footing slipped and I was sliding rapidly downhill on my arse for about 40 yards. The only thing that stopped me from going several hundred was a tree. I was in severe pain, and basically had to hike back down about 5- 5 and1/2 miles to the village in that condition. At first I thought I'd broken my tailbone, but I think it's just bruised badly.

The point is this: I have in short order gained new respect for the bad stuff that can happen on a mountain. I'm glad I lived to hike another day, and my next 3 pieces of equipment will be crampons, ice axe, and a helmet- all on the same day. When i was sitting in front of that tree, dazed and in pain, I looked up after hearing a cracking sound, and there were indeed huge chunks of ice barreling down toward me. I had to take cover behind another, larger tree to get out of the way of them because they were huge. Respect the mountain....

Wow, titan, what a story. When I saw this thread I was going to put in my usual pessimistic advice about winter mountaineering, but I felt like a Debbie Downer so I didn't. Your story did a better job explaining it anyway.

My personal view is that I take an ice axe and crampon every single time if there is snow on steep terrain. It's not even a question to me. I just bring them and I use them. Sometimes I see people (experienced and inexperienced) bring the gear but still just walk in their boots with trekking poles for as long as possible. I guess it's a judgment call, but for me, man, I just pull out the equipment. I've read too many stories of mountaineers meeting their despise with their ice axe and crampons still strapped to their packs.

Also, people have gotten lost descending from the summit of Baldy. Some have missed the turn down the west ridge and instead ended up in Goode Canyon. Also, many don't realize that the Ski Hut trail traverses numerous avalanche gullies. A lot of people get really excited after a big dumb, head up there and have no idea of the enormous risks they are taking. Before I took an avy class I had no idea either. Now I'm pretty much terrified all the time. You get really paranoid!

As it's been mentioned, it all depends on the weather and snow conditions, as well as what route you're taking. That said, most of the time I've been up Baldy or other San G mountains in the winter, I've encountered conditions where crampons were either hugely beneficial, or downright necessary for safe ascent/descent.

I think the climate we have here really tends to form icy crusts or glaze over even less-than-day-old snowfall. Heavily bootpacked snow here is just as treacherous as ice, especially if it's on a steep switchback with no lip on the downslope side. You might have $400 Sportivas but they'll slip just as easily.

Crampons weigh about a pound each, take a couple minutes to put on, and have saved my ass more times than I care to remember. I've taken to putting them on at even the first whisper of slick snow. Of course, once you run into sketchy snow/ice, you could just turn around and call it a day - but wouldn't you feel better strapping on some 'pons and charging up the hill like you were taking out a machine gun nest? Trekking poles work better than ice axes for everything but steep snow and ice or chopping out tent sites, with the edge going to the ice axe for it superiority as a melee weapon and air guitar.

Titan, welcome to the club! Glad you're OK!

bertfivesix wrote:....strapping on some 'pons and charging up the hill like you were taking out a machine gun nest?............the edge going to the ice axe for it superiority as a melee weapon and air guitar

Some of the best advise I have ever seen on this board!

Thanks, Taco. I chose Bear Flat yesterday because I assumed it would be less inclined to present me with danger since it's more south/west facing. At least this early in the season. But I was astounded at the snow level, and how the route down had iced over as I was descending. I also worried about the snow wiping out the tracks leading down, and me having to route find in my condition. Thankfully it wasn't an issue.

Once I'm equipped with the appropriate gear I'm going back up there with full confidence. It's just funny how easy it is to discount the voices who urge safety. I think of Kent Ashcraft, an experienced mountaineer who died on Mt Whitney a couple Springs ago. He lost his footing on Thor Peak and it was over just like that. I consider my little slide a gift, and a lesson on what can go wrong in an instant if you're not safely outfitted for any conditions.

That's the same way I learned to bring an axe and crampons. I climbed up Thunder mountain, using a Navy issue knife to get higher. I thought I'd slide down one of the ski runs, but I ended up sliding at high speed all the way down from the summit to the bottom of the lifts, beat up and bleeding. Bought crampons the next day.

lol that must have been fun. We're the lucky ones who got a second chance. Don't think I wasn't pondering that all the way back down to the village. My keister is solid purple today...

I thought I was going to die when it was happening.

I might suggest some substances to help with the purple ass problem, but this is a "family forum".

Great advice, everyone. Thanks!

I've ordered some of these guys: http://www.kahtoola.com/microspikes_details.php

On the way up, I'll constantly be asking myself how I'll be getting down the same areas... I'm not expecting the summit, added bonus if I make it all the way, but I'm not at all opposed to turning around if I'm not completely comfortable with the conditions.

Probably won't be for a few weeks, but I'll definitely post a trip report even if I only make it to the Ski Hut. 8)

i have to add my 4cents. it's worth more than 2 cuz i've challenged the forces of nature and know the risks first-hand.

microspikes have a use on FLAT snow. but to try and use them on anything steep, is risking your life. Dave G used them last week just cuz he bought them recently (for another jaunt and never used them) and was quite dissatisfied on the aforementioned ski hut trail. they SUCK on ice. don't even give them a second thought if there is anything icy with a bit of elevation gain/loss.

there are a thousand stories like Taco's but most don't have a bloody happy ending. just google Secor Baldy or Aminian Baldy. they both had thousands of moutaineering hours when they fell. RJ is still here, Ali is not.

i chose not to bring crampons last weekend to lighten my load by 2 pounds. Big mistake! i could have summited had i had them and instead self-arrested many a time while sending and descending and chipped a bone on my left elbow as a result on one slip. i personally will NEVER not bring crampons again. the 2 lbs i will consider as load training should i not need them. i didn't put this in my post from last weekend but as we were on the trail in the trees below the ridge, there was a party of 4 following us with boots and poles. Dave and i had axes and we were using them since our mountaineering boots were slipping on the ice under the snow. i stopped and said down to them, "This is dangerous." the leader kinda shrugged his shoulders, and i said "I'm serious, if there was another foot of snow on this ice, you could motor up it, but here we are risking our safety by trying to ascend without the right gear." "I, like you, didn't think crampons would be necessary today. I was wrong." The guy said, "it won't be this steep after we get on the ridge," and Dave and i both verbally disagreed and said just going down this slope is gonna be harder than getting up it. i'm glad to say they finally turned around since the two girls in the group i could tell had no business being up there. Dave thought i was a little harsh but all i could think of was Natalie, the girl that fell 1k feet last December 23rd. i don't want to see anyone near me (or myself) falling like that ever again.

helmets are another issue with some people. like it is sissy to use them. when you feel the pain of a frickin' piece of rime ice or rock hitting you there is nothing sissy about a wearing a helmet. or when you're sliding out-of control down a slope believe me you'll wish your whole body was sportin' a helmet! i LOVE this sport, but i LOVE life MORE! i have fun every time i am out there challenging myself and always in the hope of doing it again and again. i try to do it as safely as possible though i am nowhere near perfect and i make mistakes too, but if i ever die cuz i cut a corner... i will die pissed!!!

when hiking or climbing in snow, take crampons, axe and helmet. if you have never self-arrested then for Gawd's sake take a snow travel couse with SMI and learn to self-arrest in every position as Taco recommended. www.sierramountaineering.com if life is priceless, than the course is priced too low.

Titan, i am so glad you made it down safely though bruised. you will never forget that fear and it will make you a better mountaineer. your story should be an early season must-read for anyone considering a snow climb.

p.s. like Tim, i don't want to be debbie-downer but have you read Steve House's blog entry about his fall earlier this year? he is so fortunate to have survived and attributed his fall to being cocky http://www.stevehouse.net/Site/Training ... Weeks.html

stories and honesty like Titan's will hopefully remind us that we must pay attention and though we are "Eispiratens" we are not invicible.

Good post, Norma. Thanks for taking the time to write it up, and sorry to hear about your bone chip.

Would like to make a comment re: route-finding on Baldy - do NOT take it for granted. Any tall peak that close to the ocean can go from 100 mile views to 10' views in short order, so know how to get off the mountain if you get caught in low-visibility conditions. On at least 2 occasions I've climbed Baldy in winter where the clouds appeared to be broken and low - nothing to seem too concerned about - only to have them overtake the summit and sock it in. So, know which route will get get you off the mountain safely. 5 or 10 minutes of wind in the right conditions can, for all intents and purposes, obliterate foot prints, so don't assume you can necessarily backtrack.

Finally - if you take the summer trail off the summit, know how to find the Ski Hut if the visibility is poor. Navigating the base of the bowl is not intuitive - it's easy to get a bit too low where there are some bumps/boulders, and it can be confusing.

X2 to what Norma said. Those Kahtoola Microspikes are more for folks who live in the mountains and want to go on a trail run on snow, or move about on easy ground. Kahtoola Traction System crampons are one single step up, and one can do a fair amount of general mountaineering in them, though I would not suggest it.

Black Diamond Contact Strap, Grivel G10/12 with strap bindings, and similar 'pons from Petzl and the rest are the best for general mountaineering.

All good info. I duly noted Norma's post when she said she thought she needed the crampons after the fact. Sorry about the elbow, I think you're more injured than me. As it was, I don't own crampons yet, and I figured the trail I was on would see less snow and certainly not ice. I'm glad I suffered so little to learn such a valuable, life saving lesson.

I'm getting a lot of flak from my wife and most friends for going up there alone. It's not like I want to hike alone, but its so hard to get people to go on work days, and even on some weekends. I felt I was prepared for everything, as I had a tent, pad and sleeping bag, food, stove and fuel, and more layers. For a short while there I was certain I was going to have to set up the tent and stay the night! But what are your thoughts about going up alone? I've done Badly alone a few times, and I do have to say that its nice to get out and be alone with your thoughts for a few hours.

edit- I got my helmet from REI yesterday. Crampons and axe coming this week. :-)

-jeff

Going solo is going to be risky, mainly because if something happens, you won't have anyone else to help you.

Although, most of the time nothing happens if you're reasonably careful. But if there's an incident in mountaineering, it tends to be pretty dramatic. The person usually gets beat up pretty bad and it takes several helpers to get them off the mountain. The process can take a long time because traveling over snow is just slow or a helicopter can't extract due to winds or weather.

Statistically, incidents involving solo winter mountaineering have not ended up well at all. Many local people have died, with the exception of Ellen Coleman who was lucky to have made it to the San Jacinto hut during a storm after being injured in a fall and crawling around for hours.

However, I use to do a lot of solo hiking and mountaineering. Especially with mountaineering, I was solo probably 99% of the time. My main reason was no one to go with. I was hesitant to bring friends because I was afraid of risking their lives. Also, when you're solo you can go at your own pace and you hone skills very fast out of necessity.

But for me, I had a low level of worry all the time. I was like hyper aware of everything, which is good and bad. All these risks weighed on me. But along with a lot of luck, thinking about this stuff is what kept me out of trouble (I think). Still, I kept wondering when my number would come up. Eventually something happens to all of us. That's why I make periodic offerings to the mountain in 10's and 20's

titanhangman wrote: ↑

I have no mountaineering experience, and have never had an experience like I did today. I started up a ridge (not knowing this was the one they were talking about), and about half way up I noticed the snow was frozen.

I discovered this on my first Ski Hut to Summit try.

Good to hear you didn't get banged up too bad.

it's a sobering experience- I didn't slide like you did but was stuck for 20 mins. on some ice on a steep section. I bailed on a descent via Ski Hut and took DBB. Initially, I thought I had enough gear to follow some boot tracks until I realized, at the steep section, that the two I was following now had crampons on.

Not enough for me on ANY snow day:


My 20 mins. in Baldy Purgatory:

Titan,
to find partners: put a post on this board (and the San Jacinto Board) that you are looking for people who are available on weekdays with winter mountaineering skills (and just to hike in general) to pm you. you might get some responses. please make sure you learn how to use the equipment and self-arrest.

the wind yesterday made the east face of Baldy slick. putting on crampons at the Baldy-Harwood saddle was loads of fun. NOT! it was one of those fierce wind days that makes you seriously realize that without an axe and 'pons you could get blown over the side.

Good luck!

Thank you, Norma. That's exactly what I'll do. I do have at least two friends willing to go up with me this winter. It would be great to get to know some folks here as well. My wife has a pretty tight leash on my soloing activities, at least in the snow for now.

I was hoping to make the WPSMB hike with Kurt and the crowd on Baldy a couple weeks ago, but I realized it was on Friday and not Saturday. I see there's another one this Saturday, but I don't have the necessary winter skills yet to run with the group and I don't want to be a liability. I look forward to getting the equipment, training with it, and then feeling comfortable enough to join all of you in the winter. Ultimately I want to do the Mountaineers route on Whitney in the winter.

I'd like to go up one of these weekends with a few Eispiraten for some self-arrest practice.

A couple of dudes were practicing in the western Bowl on Friday:

Tim wrote: ↑But for me, I had a low level of worry all the time. I was like hyper aware of everything, which is good and bad. All these risks weighed on me. But along with a lot of luck, thinking about this stuff is what kept me out of trouble (I think). Still, I kept wondering when my number would come up.

I was on Baldy yesterday and saw something interesting. After you cross the bottom of the bowl the west ridge trail swings out wide to the edge of the canyon before turning back up the ridge. Right at the edge a young man stepped off the trail to allow some others to pass. He stepped onto some hard ice and almost immediately fell down; then he began that very slow yet unstoppable downhill slide on the ice. He was probably only going two miles per hour, but without an ice axe there was nothing he could do to stop. Fortunately there was a fallen tree between him and the abyss and he stopped when he hit it. He was unable to get back to the trail without my cutting some steps across the ice. We descended together and he told me he had left his crampons and ice axe at home.
Tim's quote about being hyperaware is good advice.
When in steep terrain you need to concentrate and focus on what you are doing. A careless step could be dangerous.

Like Taco's story, that is absolutely frightening! I just got home with my new BD ice axe, and Grivel G-12's. I'm ready.

Simonov, how about we organize a weekend get together for anyone who wants to do a general ascent of Baldy? Hike up to the hut, talk about stuff, go into the bowl, do self arrest and other training bits, then go to the summit. One of those kinda deals.

If anyone is interested, say yeah.

Yeah!

Maybe start something in Plans & Partners.

I am limited to weekends, and Saturday is best. I'd like to combine a day of climbing and training with an evening at the Buckhorn, so I don't have to drive home.

December doesn't look so good, since I am tied up on the 18th, most of the other weekends are holidays, and anyway there might not be much snow before January.

What do you think?

Definitely, assuming my lack of skills doesn't disqualify me.

Titan, this sort of trip is for you, folks who are just getting into mountaineering.

Simonov, we usually get our first real snow around the 17th of December. If the weather keeps up like it has, we should be covered.

Reckon early January is best for most folks?

Perfect, count me in. Hopefully I will have been up there practicing already by then, and won't be quite as green.