EISPIRATEN

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/crime/ci_16230504

where exactly do you think this was? at the bottom of the canyon, or up the south or north sides?

looking at photos, it seems they are on the south face of lookout mountain, perhaps just below the fire road at one of the two streams marked on the topo

Yeah, that looks about right Ze based on the pics.

Pray that Prop 19 passes and ends this staggering waste of resources. Pot being illegal makes as much sense as beer being illegal. Besides, if you can't figure out how to get medical marijuana, then you don't have the brains to fall off a log either.

RichardK wrote:Pray that Prop 19 passes and ends this staggering waste of resources. Pot being illegal makes as much sense as beer being illegal. Besides, if you can't figure out how to get medical marijuana, then you don't have the brains to fall off a log either.

I respectfully disagree. Your right, medical marijuana is too easy to get.

Even if you make pot legal in California, the Mexican Cartels aren't going to give up smuggling and killing and get jobs at Walmart. There will still be millions of dollars to be made.

People sitting around smoking pot and watching Scooby Doo reruns isn't the problem. Its the 1000's of people being beheaded and mutilated every year by the cartels. Prop 19 passing will not do anything to stop that. There will still be a demand and the cartels will continue to fight and kill over control to supply it.

I know this farm. I've walked through it on my way to buy bootleg beer from a still that the mobsters have been operating since the 18th amendment was repealed.

Bill wrote:I respectfully disagree.

OK, I'll bite. Why do you disagree?

hvydrt wrote:Even if you make pot legal in California, the Mexican Cartels aren't going to give up smuggling and killing and get jobs at Walmart. There will still be millions of dollars to be made.

How will the Mexican cartels make money from pot if everyone is growing it for free in their backyards? Yes, I know they will still deal coke, smack, and the rest, but that is not what is being voted on. The purpose of the law is not to deal with Mexico. It's to stop an insane policy that accomplishes nothing.

PackerGreg wrote:the 18th amendment was repealed

The only people in favor of Prohibition were Bible thumpers and bootleggers. It's the same way with marijuana.

I guess I need an emoticon for sarcasm. Or maybe one with a foil hat, because I think it's all a part of the globalist agenda.

PackerGreg wrote:....a still that the mobsters have been operating since the 18th amendment was repealed.

Turn of the computer and go back to watching Scooby Doo

RichardK wrote:.....if everyone is growing it for free in their backyards?

How does a tobacco company make any money if everyone can grow it in their backyard for free?

Voting Yes on Prop 19. Not because it is the perfect bill that will solve everything - because it is a step that needs to be taken.

My feeling is that marijuana is not as harmless as people think. It is known to cause significant brain damage over time. You may make the argument that it is no worse than alcohol. That may or may not be true, and I know some people have smoked it for years and lead perfectly normal lives. What model do we have for legalization? Copenhagen? Those people are right offs, and a burden to society.
So we legalize pot what is next? Crack cocaine, ecstasy, heroine? If your legalization argument is good for pot, then why not the others. Where do you draw the line?
I don't think the violence stops with legalization, I think it brings it to this country.
Just my opinion.

Zach wrote:

Yeah OK, make rope then, I'm all for it. But even this guy's ramblings seem to support the argument that pot leads to stronger drugs, and oh by the way they should be legal too. I am all for a persons right to do what they want with they're own lives, it's just that legalization will take us in a direction we may not want to go (There will be a lot of scooby doers I'm afraid) , and there will be no going back.

His point is that the chronic addicts will be addicts if it's legalized or not. For the other 99% of us it makes no difference. Also, I feel that America wastes WAY too much money housing drug-related offenses. 26.7 BILLION dollars. That's not including state prisons.

(2005) "The United States leads the world in the number of people incarcerated in federal and state correctional facilities. There are currently more than 2 million people in American prisons or jails. Approximately one-quarter of those people held in U.S. prisons or jails have been convicted of a drug offense. The United States incarcerates more people for drug offenses than any other country. With an estimated 6.8 million Americans struggling with drug abuse or dependence, the growth of the prison population continues to be driven largely by incarceration for drug offenses."
Source:
Justice Policy Institute, "Substance Abuse Treatment and Public Safety," (Washington, DC: January 2008), p. 1.

and: http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upl ... eet_PS.pdf

Bill wrote: So we legalize pot what is next? Crack cocaine, ecstasy, heroine? If your legalization argument is good for pot, then why not the others. Where do you draw the line?
Just my opinion.

stop with the fear-mongering... we're not looking to start any wars here

Zach wrote:His point is that the chronic addicts will be addicts if it's legalized or not. For the other 99% of us it makes no difference. Also, I feel that America wastes WAY too much money housing drug-related offenses. 26.7 BILLION dollars. That's not including state prisons.

(2005) "The United States leads the world in the number of people incarcerated in federal and state correctional facilities. There are currently more than 2 million people in American prisons or jails. Approximately one-quarter of those people held in U.S. prisons or jails have been convicted of a drug offense. The United States incarcerates more people for drug offenses than any other country. With an estimated 6.8 million Americans struggling with drug abuse or dependence, the growth of the prison population continues to be driven largely by incarceration for drug offenses."
Source:
Justice Policy Institute, "Substance Abuse Treatment and Public Safety," (Washington, DC: January 2008), p. 1.

and: http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upl ... eet_PS.pdf

Bill wrote: So we legalize pot what is next? Crack cocaine, ecstasy, heroine? If your legalization argument is good for pot, then why not the others. Where do you draw the line?
Just my opinion.

stop with the fear-mongering... we're not looking to start any wars here

If your argument is valid for pot it is also valid for other recreational drugs. You don't see a negative change in society could possibly result as result of pot legalization?
If your afraid you have reason to be. I know some see this as a well meaning solution to the drug problem, I don't.

good question, where do you draw the line?

but considering the line is currently drawn at alcohol and many argue than marijuana is less dangerous than it, you aren't crossing the line.

from a personal standpoint I could care less, but certainly from what I've studied and experienced I'm less concerned about pot smokers than drinkers.

Zé wrote:good question, where do you draw the line?

but considering the line is currently drawn at alcohol and many argue than marijuana is less dangerous than it, you aren't crossing the line.

from a personal standpoint I could care less, but certainly from what I've studied and experienced I'm less concerned about pot smokers than drinkers.

No doubt. Alcohol is a huge problem, and like I say, I can't say pot is worse. But, let's admit that we have a problem with alcohol (drunk driving, domestic violence etc) and apply it to pot, with an unquantifiable increase in it's use. Admittedly, it is not the same as alcohol with respect to violencel, but it will have it's own unique problems. It impairs judgement (driving, or what ever requires full attentiveness) whatever. Why expose society to another layer of problems, on a gamble?

hvydrt wrote:Even if you make pot legal in California, the Mexican Cartels aren't going to give up smuggling and killing and get jobs at Walmart. There will still be millions of dollars to be made.

Right, on smuggling cocaine.

Then we can start working on legalizing that, too.

Bill wrote:Why expose society to another layer of problems, on a gamble?

This statement assumes that society isn't already exposed to these "problems."

No prohibition in the history of free societies has ever worked. Not one.

On the other hand, almost every single one has brought with it an increase in criminal activity and violence.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Zé wrote:good question, where do you draw the line?

I don't draw the line.

Remove prohibitions and the profits for drug trafficking are dramatically lowered. No more pushers, no more shady dudes hanging out at school playgrounds.

When was the last time you heard about dudes hanging around schools pushing vodka onto kids? How many homes are broken into by winos and other alcoholics to support their habit? Aside from the US Marines in the previous century, when were armies and militias involved in the cultivation and distribution of coffee in South America?

It is actually more difficult today for a minor to get his hands on a cigarette than to get some pot or cocaine. Why? Because the distribution of tobacco is in the hands of mostly law-abiding people who generally aren't interested in violating the law for the small profit they would earn in selling cigarettes to minors.

The pot and cocaine dealers don't care about breaking the law, by definition.

Legalize all that stuff and you put them out of business.

simonov wrote:

Bill wrote:Why expose society to another layer of problems, on a gamble?

This statement assumes that society isn't already exposed to these "problems."

No prohibition in the history of free societies has ever worked. Not one.

On the other hand, almost every single one has brought with it an increase in criminal activity and violence.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

You don't see legalization leading to an increase of it's use? I am afraid we are all about to learn a painful lesson. Do you think any drug should be illegal? Sorry, I did'nt see your earlier post.

Bill wrote:You don't see legalization leading to an increase of it's use?

Not much. Most people who will ever want to use cocaine and other narcotic drugs are already getting them.

If cocaine were legalized tomorrow, I wouldn't use it. Would you? Do you personally know anyone who, today, is just itching to get his hands on some H but is dissuaded because of its prohibited status?

As for marijuana, it's nearly harmless, and if legalizing marijuana caused more people to use it instead of alcohol, which is addictive poison, then that would be a social benefit.

In any case, however more people used legalized drugs, it still wouldn't come close to overriding the tremendous social benefits of the reduction in crime and violence cause by prohibition, to say nothing of the costs, in treasure and in national dignity, of incarcerating more of our own citizens than any other country on the planet.

"Land of the Free" indeed.

simonov wrote:

Bill wrote:You don't see legalization leading to an increase of it's use?

Not much. Most people who will ever want to use cocaine and other narcotic drugs are already getting them.

If cocaine were legalized tomorrow, I wouldn't use it. Would you? Do you personally know anyone who, today, is just itching to get his hands on some H but is dissuaded because of its prohibited status?

As for marijuana, it's nearly harmless, and if legalizing marijuana caused more people to use it instead of alcohol, which is addictive poison, then that would be a social benefit.

In any case, however more people used legalized drugs, it still wouldn't come close to overriding the tremendous social benefits of the reduction in crime and violence cause by prohibition, to say nothing of the costs, in treasure and in national dignity, of incarcerating more of our own citizens than any other country on the planet.

"Land of the Free" indeed.

We must agree to disagree then. As for cocaine and other drugs of they're kind. Whether or not you and I would use them is irrelevant. We are older and wiser hopefully. I contend that legalization of those drugs amounts to acceptance and would be a green light for their use among those who don't know better in my opinon.

Bill wrote: If your afraid you have reason to be. I know some see this as a well meaning solution to the drug problem, I don't.

The fear tactic definitely doesn't scare me, although it seems to work beautifully on a lot of other Americans.

I guess my whole point is that making particular substances illegal has always led to massive black-hole type government spending to fight a perceived "problem." The result is the same. The law abiding citizens still obey the law and the rest keep doing what they're doing. I don't think I've ever heard of a substance abuser saying that he/she quit because the government made is so damn hard to get their fix.

You want to spend billions of dollars? Spend it on addiction-treatment facilities and programs that fix the ROOT of the problem for these addicts.

Bill wrote: Whether or not you and I would use them is irrelevant. We are older and wiser hopefully. I contend that legalization of those drugs amounts to acceptance and would be a green light for their use among those who don't know better in my opinon.

No, I definitely don't see legalization as green light for use. Everyone makes their own choices. The parent who says, "I don't want my children exposed to it" is gravely mistaken. Believe it or not, children WILL make their own decisions regardless of how "easy" or "hard" it is to obtain a substance (which is actually a joke). Spending a few pennies on the drug-fighting dollar to educate and inform "those who don't know better" would be far more (cost) effective than keeping it illegal.

simonov wrote:Right, on smuggling cocaine.

Do you honestly think the cartels will just stop smuggling pot if its legalized in California? Why would they stop?

Zach wrote:Everyone makes their own choices. The parent who says, "I don't want my children exposed to it" is gravely mistaken. Believe it or not, children WILL make their own decisions regardless of how "easy" or "hard" it is to obtain a substance (which is actually a joke).

I am reminded of the delusion, widespread in this country, that if only we don't expose teens to sex they won't ever try it, or at least not until they are of legal and responsible age.



How do you become an adult without having first been a teenager?

hvydrt wrote:

simonov wrote:Right, on smuggling cocaine.

Do you honestly think the cartels will just stop smuggling pot if its legalized in California? Why would they stop?

They will stop when it becomes unprofitable. That's why "decriminalization" is pointless, and full legalization (ie, treat it like tobacco or alcohol) will deliver the benefits.

Consider: one of the most popular and addictive substances consumed by Americans comes primarily from South America. And yet, the cartels seem uninterested in the importation and distribution of coffee. You need to ask yourself why are they more interested in pot and cocaine than in coffee (which, again, is very addictive and offers a much larger market).

Scooby says "YES ON 19!"

simonov wrote:That's why "decriminalization" is pointless, and full legalization (ie, treat it like tobacco or alcohol) will deliver the benefits.

Full legalization. Does that include all of the requisite regulations by the FDA, etc.?