EISPIRATEN

Is anyone here really sorry the California grizzly was exterminated nearly 100 years ago?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100729/ap_ ... ling_death

simonov wrote:Is anyone here really sorry the California grizzly was exterminated nearly 100 years ago?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100729/ap_ ... ling_death

Actually, no, I'm not at all sorry.

I realize it's a shame that a particular species was hunted to death, but I'm dang glad not to have the griz hanging around here. I completely empathize with people who have aggressive species "reintroduced" into their area.

Those big mountain kitties we have here are more than enough, thanks.

HJ

simonov wrote:Is anyone here really sorry the California grizzly was exterminated nearly 100 years ago?

Yes.

Also sorry that humans then intrude on the tiny places they have left in this world.

Yes, I am sorry that the grizzly has been extirpated from its California range. HOWEVER, I fully realize that there is no way that it could survive in these times.

Humans win out every time...

I read a book called "Night of the Grizzlies" a few years ago about two separate Grizzly Attacks on the same night in Glacier Park. It was as chilling and scary as anything I have ever read, including Stephen King.
Apparently theses attacks changed how we think about Grizzly Bears.

But.... I am sorry that there are no Grizzlies in California, and would have been happy to adapt my hiking to their presence. ( a big gun maybe?). It is our loss.
I wouldn't expect them in the Mountains near LA, but there is a lot of space in northern California and the Sierra's. It was fear and hunting that killed them all.

asbufra wrote:But.... I am sorry that there are no Grizzlies in California, and would have been happy to adapt my hiking to their presence. ( a big gun maybe?).

There is no firearm short of a rifle or a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with deer slugs that will be of much use against an 800 lb grizzly. These jokers who carry .44 Magnums into the wilderness are fooling themselves.

Personally, I'm glad I don't have to carry a frigging 9lb rifle with me everywhere I go in the backcountry.

All the significant dangers in our local wilderness are preventable or avoidable. The principal dangers are falls, which can largely be avoided (or not, it's down to your own behavior); hypothermia, which is not hard to avoid if you aren't somehow already crippled or immobilized; and lightning, which can easily be avoided (by leaving the area when thunderstorms appear or taking well-understood and effective precautions).

Grizzlies simply cannot be avoided. If you are in their territory, they can attack you, or not, It's up to them. You have no say in the matter, aside from simply staying out of their habitats.

I have spent 1000's of hours in grizzly country and have no negative experiences with them. Statistically, you are more likely to die from a deer or driving to the trailhead. I would love to see them in the Sierra, they would get the black bears under control real fast. You haven't lived until you are no longer the top of the food chain.

406 wrote:I have spent 1000's of hours in grizzly country and have no negative experiences with them. Statistically, you are more likely to die from a deer or driving to the trailhead.

Well, I guess that's a little reassuring. I have to confess that I have a completely irrational fear of grizzlies. I'm not sure why, but I'm terrified of them. Kinda weird, but there you have it.

406 wrote:I would love to see them in the Sierra, they would get the black bears under control real fast.

Interesting (or was that just a joke?). Would the grizzlies hunt the blacks? Or just the competition for range and food would cause a decrease in the black bear population? What kept black bears in check prior to modernity? Limitations in food and range only, yes? I wouldn't think mountain lions would hunt them; they're not exactly an easy snack.

HJ

406 wrote:You haven't lived until you are no longer the top of the food chain.

and even though the numbers of predators are low and the chance of an encounter with a predator is low, and the odds of a fatal event is very, very low, when we go out in the woods we are no longer the top of the food chain. keeps me on my toes and my head on a swivel.

406 wrote:I have spent 1000's of hours in grizzly country and have no negative experiences with them.

You have been lucky.

Again, my objection to grizzlies is they represent a danger that simply cannot be mitigated, as can all the other dangers in the backcountry.

I would prefer that the CA grizzly wasn't extinct. It's my understanding that they were more of a lowland bear and had mostly seperate areas from the black bears in CA.

simonov wrote:Again, my objection to grizzlies is they represent a danger that simply cannot be mitigated, as can all the other dangers in the backcountry.

I understand that. And I do admit, if we had grizzlies in the San Gabriels, I would be very afraid, and people would no doubt get attacked. My feeling "sorry" is from the idea that an entire species of animal can't exist, because I want to go hiking and not be afraid. It doesn't seem like a fair compromise.

What if we compare it to sharks? I'd like to try surfing, but I actually won't go in the ocean very far (in California) because I'm afraid of a shark attack - lots of people do, and even though a shark attack is extremely rare, it is one of those uncontrollable things. I wouldn't wish there were no sharks, so that I could go surfing though.

Slight shift in topic here: In what ways was the California Griz different than other North American grizzlies?

Here's why I ask: The grizzly bear has been declassified from being a separate, distinct species (Ursus horribilis) and included in the Brown Bear species (Ursus arctos). In other words, biologists today don't consider any grizzly bear to be genetically any different from the bears in Europe, let alone the "California grizzly". Personally, I'm a little skeptical of this view, but perhaps really the "California grizzly" is no different than a grizzly in Wyoming or Montana and that what has really happened is a reduction in range rather than an extinction.

Small comfort I suppose inasmuch as the griz is gone from California, and personally (without any science whatsoever to back this up) I suspect that there may have been unique things about the California griz.

Personal aside: My reaction to the grizzly is weird. I'm not afraid of sharks. I'm not particularly afraid of mountain lions. I'm not particularly afraid of rattlesnakes even though (unlike mountain lions which I've never seen in 40+ years of hiking) I see buzz tails on a fairly regular basis. But I'm utterly petrified of grizzlies. Weird. I guess we all have our phobias.

I'm at once relieved not to have to share the trail with them but also saddened that a part of my natural heritage is forever gone.

HJ

Rumpled wrote:I would prefer that the CA grizzly wasn't extinct. It's my understanding that they were more of a lowland bear and had mostly seperate areas from the black bears in CA.

I understand the black bears are not native here.

The California grizzlies lived up in the mountains. There were so many of them that during the first US Army expedition across the San Bernardino Mountains 22 soldiers took 22 bears.

The last wild California grizzly was killed in the Santa Ana Mountains (!!).

I don't know about the Santa Ana Mountains grizzly, but Robinson in his book, The San Gabriels, noted (albeit, controversially) that the last bear in SoCal was shot in Big T in 1916. Here is a scan of part of page 20:


I thought the last grizzly in California was killed in Tulare County in 1922. What info do you have on the Santa Ana Mountains bear? Sounds interesting...

I see where the last grizzly in the Santa Ana Mountains was killed in early 1908. She was raiding the beehives in Holy Jim Canyon but was shot in Trabuco Canyon.

Picture:


Headline:

I have read that CA griz's also were associated with Tule Elk, their prey; in the great marsh areas that was the southern San Joaquin Valley.

simonov wrote:

406 wrote:I have spent 1000's of hours in grizzly country and have no negative experiences with them.

You have been lucky.

Again, my objection to grizzlies is they represent a danger that simply cannot be mitigated, as can all the other dangers in the backcountry.

Sure a bit of luck but also there are things to lower risk. There are lots of dangers that can't be mitigated, but people seem to accept some while others that are rare create more fear and are unacceptable.

Hikin_Jim wrote:

406 wrote:I would love to see them in the Sierra, they would get the black bears under control real fast.

Interesting (or was that just a joke?). Would the grizzlies hunt the blacks? Or just the competition for range and food would cause a decrease in the black bear population? What kept black bears in check prior to modernity? Limitations in food and range only, yes? I wouldn't think mountain lions would hunt them; they're not exactly an easy snack.

HJ

I'm not a biologist, but have noticed that black bears are more aggressive in areas without grizzlies.

from wiki:
The grizzly bear (Ursus arctos horribilis), also known as the silvertip bear, is a subspecies of brown bear (Ursus arctos) that generally lives in the uplands of western North America. This subspecies is thought to descend from Ussuri brown bears which crossed to Alaska from Eastern Russia 100,000 years ago, though they did not move south until 13,000 years ago.



I would guess that they lived anyplace with food in California.

I dont mind hiking in their enviornment, although I imagine it would cause a lot of problems for the San Gabriels as the forest is currently designed. What are those citizens of Monrovia going to do when a grizzly comes wandering in their house?

I dont know what mitigation one is looking for, but its not as hopeless as the media makes it sound. Ive havent encountered a grizzly, but havent heard of the precautions being ineffective either. If the bear isnt surprised at your presence, have all food sealed,you are carrying bear spray(and have practiced using it)......can go even further and be in a group ,wear some tough clothes,etc...I dont see many bear related injuries if the precautions are in order. I kinda of went a different direction as well by having 8 of those annoying portable door alarms setup in case anything breached my perimeter and glow in the dark tape.Course, hiking XC at night in grizzly territory doesnt sound smart.

The only time I was petrified was at Yellowstone. It was cold and raining sleeping deep into the morning in the car....there was a knock on the window, like Im going to respond to that. Another knock and I slowly put one eye from underneath the cover wondering who has a death wish. Finally a flashlight came on and it was a ranger....I had left some milk outside..oops! Umm..yeah, not a good idea...just need to adapt, no need to kill them off.

AW wrote:Another knock and I slowly put one eye from underneath the cover wondering who has a death wish.

Excellent narrative hook. Something Harry Harrison may have written.

When in Bavaria several years ago, I drove through the Black Forest and there was a sign which read "Last Bear Killed Here in 1958" (maybe the year is incorrect, but the message is the same). Do we have a sign like that here? And if so, what a sad use of taxpayer's dollars. I agree with CougarMagic...and I have a respectable fear of the Brown and Grizzley.