EISPIRATEN

Posted: **Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:03 pm**

I want to open up an honest and civilized discussion about the differences in the way the ODC outings are run vs. the way the Sierra Club outings are run (as well as any other hiking "clubs" you care to include).

Based on a couple of years of pure anecdotal information from the internet forums and web sites, I personally get the impression that more "problems" occur on ODC outings than on Sierra Club outings. Most likely my impression is based on an incomplete set of data, therefore I was wondering if any one has some hard data on which to draw an objective conclusion from.

If my impressions, for the sake of argument, are true, then why is it so? Is it because the ODC is less formal and rigid compared to the Sierra Club? For example, the S.C. requires signing in and out with the leaders, signing waivers, having a sweeper, etc., where as it seems the ODC spends a lot of effort in pointing out that everyone is responsible for themselves (which seems to de-emphasize the group mentality where everyone looks out for each other - an important part of having a safe outing).

I admit to not having an irrefutable basis for my impressions, so I welcome all comments, corrections, opinions. Full disclosure: I do not have a horse in this race - I don't participate in either group's outings.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:07 am**

They are completely different. The Sierra Club is an organized group with trained leaders. The Outdoors Club is not an organized club - it's just a site where people post to get together to go on trips. The Outdoors Club is much like any other message board or forum where people post looking for others to hike with. I think it's the way the website is set up for the Outdoors Club that makes people think they are going on a hiking trip with a Sierra Club type leader. From what I've seen, both the Sierra Club and the Outdoors Club outings can be very large groups and that can't be easy for the leader/organizer to handle - especially when they don't know the people.

Everyone has their own style of hiking, so there is a place for both the Outdoors Club and the Sierra Club type outings.

I don't like to hike in a line or a large group and I like the freedom to lag behind or wander ahead or even go the wrong directions, so neither of those groups feel comfortable to me. I do like hiking with other people sometimes, but not in large groups. Other people enjoy hiking in a very organized or large group, so it's good that the groups are there.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:18 am**

Thanks Kathy.

KathyW wrote:I think it's the way the website is set up for the Outdoors Club that makes people think they are going on a hiking trip with a Sierra Club type leader.

I think this is true despite the numerous statements they have on the site saying that you are the only one responsible for your safety. Why get a group together to go hiking when the first thing you say to them is "thanks for joining, you're on your own from here on. good luck!"?

Again, correct me if I am interpreting things incorrectly.

KathyW wrote:or even go the wrong direction

LOL, I've got to try that sometime, sounds fun!

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:19 am**

I agree with Kathy. I used to hike a lot with ODC becasue of the loose, informal structure. I hike fast, and I would often end up taking off and hiking at my own pace on these ODC hikes and leaving the leader. Often I would find one ot two others who hike at my same pace as we would take off (this is acutally how I found my current group of hikers that I now hike with). I tried a Sierra club hike once and could not handle the "rules". I understand they are there for a good reason, but I am not the type to follow rules. So now I typically end up hiking in small groups of experienced hikers who we know hike at the same pace.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:20 am**

HikeUp wrote:Thanks Kathy.
KathyW wrote:I think it's the way the website is set up for the Outdoors Club that makes people think they are going on a hiking trip with a Sierra Club type leader.
I think this is true despite the numerous statements they have on the site saying that you are the only one responsible for your safety. Why get a group together to go hiking when the first thing you say to them is "thanks for joining, you're on your own from here on. good luck!"?

Again, correct me if I am interpreting things incorrectly.

I think you are interpreting things precisely.

It's a real problem. I'm a leader for a similar club, the OCHBC, and while I try to be conscientious and safety-minded, I certainly side with the people who insist a hiker's safety is his own responsibility. One of the people in the ODC thread made an important point: since the leaders are not trained mountaineers, what are you supposed to do if a leader is making unsafe decisions? Blindly follow him into tragedy?

But Kathy and HikeUp are right: there is certainly an implication with these clubs that the leaders are leaders by virtue of some proven greater knowledge, experience and judgment. In fact, we are leaders because we are willing to do it. Clubs are always looking for willing organizers. I'm not even sure why I was assigned an "assistant organizer" in the OCHBC; I think it was because I was willing and run my own business so the president dude thought maybe I had enough judgment to safely lead people. He didn't know me very well before he asked me to start organizing hikes.

Personally, I accept the "assistant organizer" title as a massive responsibility and am extremely conscientious about the safety and enjoyment of the hikes I lead. Others not so much. The waivers of both clubs spell out how hikers are essentially responsible for their own safety, but that doesn't really matter except maybe in court: it's the perception that many hikers will have, that they are in experienced, thoughtful hands, that will dictate what they are prepared to do.

Clearly, many hikers will venture beyond what they would normally feel comfortable doing because a "leader" urges them on and is there to help. This is normally a good thing, because it is how so many of us get past our fears and experience things we might never do otherwise. But when suddenly (and, let's face it, relatively rarely) it leads to tragedy, all the finger-pointing begins. Besides a personal fetish I have for individual responsibility, it would be a real shame if the legal or club culture swung over to the point that leaders were reluctant or prohibited from guiding people beyond their prior capabilities, or that only "certified mountaineers" were permitted to do so.

While Nicole Flaten was tumbling to her death, a group from the OCHBC was walking and snowshoeing to the summit of Mt San Jacinto. I had wanted to join this hike, but I had out of town business last weekend. As the RSVP list filled, I had some misgivings about the hike, as there seemed to be a wide spectrum of skill levels among the hikers, and several of them were clearly noobs. This was going to be a pretty challenging winter hike (though nothing technical, of course). However, the leader, Ed Pustera, is one of our most conscientious ones, and apparently even the noobs have been raving about what a great time they had on a difficult winter hike that they would normally never have attempted without Ed and the OCHBC. It would be a shame if tragedies like Nicole Flaten's death meant the end of adventures like this one.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:58 am**

Thanks simonov. Great points made with great clarity.

simonov wrote:The waivers of both clubs spell out how hikers are essentially responsible for their own safety, but that doesn't really matter except maybe in court: it's the perception that many hikers will have, that they are in experienced, thoughtful hands, that will dictate what they are prepared to do.

I think this is the main point of contention in many of the discussions I've seen about ODC.

If indeed ODC outings are more prone to "problems" than Sierra Club outings, then clearly there must be a reason and perhaps things could be changed to improve safety. Does ODC need to have even more warnings and disclaimers regarding the qualifications or lack of certification of the leaders? The perception that many hikers may have regarding ODC is real and needs to be overcome with clarity and not some legal disclaimer.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:30 pm**

HikeUp wrote: If indeed ODC outings are more prone to "problems" than Sierra Club outings, then clearly there must be a reason and perhaps things could be changed to improve safety. Does ODC need to have even more warnings and disclaimers regarding the qualifications or lack of certification of the leaders? The perception that many hikers may have regarding ODC is real and needs to be overcome with clarity and not some legal disclaimer.

I've never seen any hard data on which to base a conclusion that ODC outings have more mishaps than Sierra Club outings. I have been on Sierra Club outings that have had "problems" (for example, getting lost going cross-country and having to descend hazardous terrain to extricate ourselves). One safety feature of the Sierra Club structure is that leaders cannot lead hikes at a level beyond what they are certified for. Leaders at the lowest rating level can only lead hikes on trails or well used ridge routes. One level above, leaders who can take groups cross-country must have passed a very vigorous and extensive navigation exam both for desert and mountain travel. There are additional levels for leaders who want to lead mountaineering outings (snow travel with crampons and ice axe).

Screening outing participants is also more rigorous within the Sierra Club. For advanced outings, the leaders select participants in advance so that you just can't show up at the trailhead. Before the outing, at the trailhead, anyone who is not properly equipped (clothing, water, helmet) is not allowed to proceed unless someone has extra equipment. Leader decision is final. People who misrepresent or exaggerate their experience to get on an outing are usually quickly found out, although at that point the leader has to decide how to get the person back to the trailhead.

On the other hand, with ODC, anyone can coordinate an outing at any level. I'm sure most people who post "advanced" outings for ODC are confident of their skills to lead the outing, although I have seen some postings which have made me cringe ("Come climb with me in JT, we'll have fun" -NO REFERENCE TO LEADER EXPERIENCE OR WHAT SKILL LEVEL PARTICIPANTS SHOULD HAVE).

Sierra Club leaders also have great motivation to be cautious because an "incident" (someone getting injured; having to bivouac ) means reams of paperwork and explaining to do. This can be stifling for a leader needless to say.

I don't think additional warning language on the ODC disclaimer would accomplish anything. The language is pretty clear that the "club" and its members (thus including leaders) disclaim any responsibility for participant safety. The difficulty is that many (most?) participants expect -and need- guidance on the outing despite what they read about being responsible for their own safety. The technical jargon that psychologists use is "cognitive dissonance" meaning "things don't seem to fit here." You show up for a hike and the leader says "Welcome; let's all introduce ourselves; this is the route we'll be doing today." Then the leader says, "O.K., now you're on your own; if you fall behind, don't expect anyone to wait for you."

I'm with those who say that, despite disclaimers, a leader can't abdicate responsibility to those who are willing to follow her direction. Either accept that or don't post outings on a public forum even though you only call yourself a "coordinator."

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:44 pm**

Thanks Augie.

Augie wrote:I've never seen any hard data on which to base a conclusion that ODC outings have more mishaps than Sierra Club outings.

Me neither. Let me reiterate that my comments are based on my impressions that are solely based on anecdotal stories. I'm not trying to disparage ODC, just trying to clarify.

Augie wrote:I don't think additional warning language on the ODC disclaimer would accomplish anything. The language is pretty clear that the "club" and its members (thus including leaders) disclaim any responsibility for participant safety.

Maybe the language needs to be expanded to make clear that "members" includes leaders, and perhaps that leaders are not necessarily certified/qualified. Explicitly saying the obvious ensures that it is obvious.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:04 pm**

HikeUp wrote: Maybe the language needs to be expanded to make clear that "members" includes leaders, and perhaps that leaders are not necessarily certified/qualified. Explicitly saying the obvious ensures that it is obvious.

I doubt further education of the members would help (actually, I'm not even sure there is really even a safety problem here). There will always remain an expectation that leaders are competent to lead, no matter what disclaimers are made.

What would be helpful, however, is for the ODC and the OCHBC to establish a minimum competency level for leaders and assistant organizers. I don't mean CPR certification or anything like that, but simply the establishment of some expectations and procedures. I don't know about ODC, but there's nothing like that with OCHBC.

As I said, I'm not so sure there is really a safety problem that needs to be solved here (the problem is in perceptions people might have). From what I understand of the facts, Nicole Flaten was simply a young woman who slipped on some ice and fell; I certainly don't see how anyone else can really be held responsible for what happened to her (on the same day, an extremely experienced hiker did the same thing on San Jacinto, but fortunately survived, barely). But I do agree that no matter what the waivers say, ODC and OCHBC event leadership should meet the expectations the members can reasonably expect of it.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:05 pm**

Augie wrote: On the other hand, with ODC, anyone can coordinate an outing at any level. I'm sure most people who post "advanced" outings for ODC are confident of their skills to lead the outing, although I have seen some postings which have made me cringe ("Come climb with me in JT, we'll have fun" -NO REFERENCE TO LEADER EXPERIENCE OR WHAT SKILL LEVEL PARTICIPANTS SHOULD HAVE)..

Something this board should be aware of as well. Not everything straightforward is straightforward to everyone.

Augie wrote:
I don't think additional warning language on the ODC disclaimer would accomplish anything. The language is pretty clear that the "club" and its members (thus including leaders) disclaim any responsibility for participant safety. The difficulty is that many (most?) participants expect -and need- guidance on the outing despite what they read about being responsible for their own safety. The technical jargon that psychologists use is "cognitive dissonance" meaning "things don't seem to fit here." You show up for a hike and the leader says "Welcome; let's all introduce ourselves; this is the route we'll be doing today." Then the leader says, "O.K., now you're on your own; if you fall behind, don't expect anyone to wait for you."

I'm with those who say that, despite disclaimers, a leader can't abdicate responsibility to those who are willing to follow her direction. Either accept that or don't post outings on a public forum even though you only call yourself a "coordinator."

As I see it, Nicole accomplished the outing as described...elevation gain/distance. Nowhere was ice&snow listed as expected. As I read it, it appears the group was caught offguard as ODC routes are for replicating experiences, they are not designed to taken into account what ifs(there might be different opinions as to why this is). Interestingly, the ODC promotes a wide variety of techniques and does not compare them to the actual tolerance of the routes. As your example, lets go climb JT, theres plenty of ways to climb, its straightforward over there....well.....no...climbing is technical with a low tolerance for not following procedures...but then again, there are some who wear a injury as a badge of honor.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:11 pm**

simonov wrote:I doubt further education of the members would help (actually, I'm not even sure there is really even a problem here).

Agreed, I'm not convinced there is a problem either.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:20 pm**

HikeUp wrote:
simonov wrote:I doubt further education of the members would help (actually, I'm not even sure there is really even a problem here).
Agreed, I'm not convinced there is a problem either.

I only have a problem when the reaction gravitates toward protecting the brand image generally by slamming the dead or those near him/her.

"Hasmik Poladian:Hi everyone, Nicole was one of my close friends. I’ve known her for over 9 years. We became close when she became my office-mate. Since then, our friendship grew closer in time and she was one of my best friends that I will miss terribly.......Having read everything that you’ve all collectively said so far, I don’t think I can describe my emotions in one word. I’m very sad, angry, disturbed, shocked, in denial, and most of all incapable of shaking off the need to demand answers and explanation from someone who can justify why this had to happen. "

The focus should be on dealing with a sudden impact to the lives of those around her. From my experience, to show up and talk with the family means a lot to them, more so than it seems. Thats my advice anyway.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:10 pm**

AW wrote: I only have a problem when the reaction gravitates toward protecting the brand image generally by slamming the dead or those near him/her.

Huh? Nothing anyone has said so far on this thread even remotely describes what you've just said.

But thanks for bringing in that message from Nicole's friend. I can certainly understand his reaction and wanting "answers." Unfortunately, there are no answers that will bring her back.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:36 pm**

Augie wrote:One safety feature of the Sierra Club structure is that leaders cannot lead hikes at a level beyond what they are certified for. Leaders at the lowest rating level can only lead hikes on trails or well used ridge routes. One level above, leaders who can take groups cross-country must have passed a very vigorous and extensive navigation exam both for desert and mountain travel. There are additional levels for leaders who want to lead mountaineering outings (snow travel with crampons and ice axe).

Screening outing participants is also more rigorous within the Sierra Club. For advanced outings, the leaders select participants in advance so that you just can't show up at the trailhead. Before the outing, at the trailhead, anyone who is not properly equipped (clothing, water, helmet) is not allowed to proceed unless someone has extra equipment. Leader decision is final. People who misrepresent or exaggerate their experience to get on an outing are usually quickly found out, although at that point the leader has to decide how to get the person back to the trailhead.

On the other hand, with ODC, anyone can coordinate an outing at any level. I'm sure most people who post "advanced" outings for ODC are confident of their skills to lead the outing, although I have seen some postings which have made me cringe ("Come climb with me in JT, we'll have fun" -NO REFERENCE TO LEADER EXPERIENCE OR WHAT SKILL LEVEL PARTICIPANTS SHOULD HAVE).

I suspect there are good reasons why the Sierra Club does things this way. Reason being that you tend to end up with a group with a similar range of expectations, skills, experience, etc. The ODC seems to strive to accomplish this but, as illustrated by Augie's description, falls well short of ensuring it. The implication being that if the group consists of similar people, it will tend to (not automatically) be a safer group?

Is this a fair conclusion?

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:44 pm**

I have never been on a Sierra Club or ODC hike, but I have encountered quite a few of both and believe that they both do great things. I have organized, and otherwise participated in, some informal group hikes using message boards like this one. I think that it is important that, at the outset, everyone involved understand and agree upon things like the leader's role (or if there is a leader at all), whether or not everyone plans to stick together, etc. If there are people who expect help or guidance, that should be clear up front.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:25 pm**

Just to clarify: I was referring to the ODC thread...

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:56 pm**

AW wrote:Just to clarify: I was referring to the ODC thread...

Ah, that explains your comment. Yep, on that forum things seem to get heated about the incident and not necessarily in relevant and helpful directions.

Posted: **Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:04 pm**

I think the main difference between ODC and the Sierra Club is that they attract different people. To most people the Sierra Club appears to be more for serious hikers. On the other hand, ODC and OCHBC are more informal and cost very little or nothing at all, so they're more likely to attract a wider spectrum of people. I notice that many of the profiles on ODC or OCHBC seem to be of people who are interested in the outdoors but have no means to get started.

Posted: **Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:18 am**

I have hiked with both the ODC and the Sierra Club and prefer ODC except for one important thing. With large groups they need a fast group and a slow group. If the organiser is up front he needs to wait periodically until everyone has caught up. If he is not prepared to do that he needs to appoint a responible sweep to bring up the rear.

Posted: **Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:53 am**

Cy Kaicener wrote:I have hiked with both the ODC and the Sierra Club and prefer ODC except for one important thing. With large groups they need a fast group and a slow group. If the organiser is up front he needs to wait periodically until everyone has caught up. If he is not prepared to do that he needs to appoint a responible sweep to bring up the rear.

Good point. The Sierra Club requires two rated leaders on each outing so that there can be a sweep. Usually the leaders take turns leading and sweeping. It certainly prevents losing people and it lends itself to having fast and slow groups each with a leader.

Posted: **Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:22 pm**

While training doesn't automatically guarantee saftey, it's a step in the right direction. When I went through the Sierra Club's leadership training, I think they raised my awareness of possible pratfalls for a leader. If nothing else, the idea of having a leader and a sweep with everyone else in between really helps prevent people getting lost.

There was an ODC hike up the Skyline trail in the Mt. San Jacinto area last summer, where SAR had to be called in. The leader made it fine to the top, but one participant who was having trouble was basically abandoned en route, had trouble staying on route, and ran into heat problems. It turned out OK, but the idea of the leader charging off and leaving people behind leaves me feeling uneasy.

It's also nice to know that Sierra Club leaders are rated for the particular type of outing, although, again, that doesn't automatically guarantee safety.

HJ

Posted: **Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:08 pm**

Just for fun...

Three examples of outing descriptions for the exact same hike up Strawberry Peak...

Sierra Club...

M: Strawberry Peak (6164'): Moderate 6 miles round trip, 2600' gain via Colby Canyon. Experience and comfort on class 3 rock required. Meet 9 AM Colby Canyon parking area (11 miles from La Cañada rideshare point, 1 mile beyond Angeles Crest/Angeles Forest junction). Bring good boots, Adventure Pass, something with "strawberries" to share on top. Rain cancels. Leaders: BARRY HOLCHIN, BOB BEACH

ODC example #1...

This is an official Peru 2008 warm up hike!

In a Nutshell: This is my favorite half day hike in the San Gabriels. This a 6 mile out and back day hike to the top of 6,164' Strawberry Peak via Colby Canyon. The elevation gain is 2,700'. We will meet both at the 210 Fwy/Angeles Crest rideshare point by 8:30am, and then again at the Colby Canyon trailhead at 8:50am. We start hiking at 9am sharp. I expect to finish about 2:30-3p, depending on the time spent on top.

Your Responsibility: I am not responsible for you or your safety or the safety of anybody you bring along. You are responsible for yourself! You may very well find yourself on your own if you tend to hike faster, or slower, than others in the group. You are expected to be self-sufficient in the backcountry and be able to find your own way to safety in the event you find yourself on your own. If you are comfortable with your backcountry skills, please join us. If you are not, this hike is not be for you.
Additional Info: Strawberry Peak is considered the "fun peak" because its nearly vertical upper section gives you the feeling that you've really climbed a mountain. The first half of the ascent follows the established Colby Canyon trail up to Josephine Saddle on the Josephine/Strawberry ridge. Then the off-trail portion follows this ridge to the summit of Strawberry. Though off-trail, most of this route simply requires following a well-established use-trail. However, that use-trail is interrupted in two places by rockfaces that require Class 3 climbing and careful route finding. Provided we follow the usual route and exercise proper care, these climbs can be done safely without technical equipment.

If you have a fear of heights, or are uncomfortable with sketchy footing or Class 3 Climbing, this may not be the event for you!

Directions to the Colby Canyon Trailhead from La Canada/Flintridge/210: Take the Angeles Crest Highway (2) exit from the 210. Proceed east up the Angeles Crest Highway from La Canada/Flintridge past the intersection of the Angeles Forest Highway at the Clear Creek Ranger Station and past the Switzer's Picnic Area turnout on the right side of the road. Then, the road descends briefly about a .5 mile and, at the bottom where it contours through Colby Canyon, you will find a dirt parking area on the left side of the road and signs for the Colby Canyon trailhead. The distance from the 210 to the trailhead is about 10 miles.

Directions to Colby Canyon Trailhead from Palmdale/Lancaster: Proceed up the Angeles Forest Highway from Palmdale to the end of the road at Angeles Crest Highway. Turn Left (east) onto the Angeles Crest Highway. After about a mile, you will pass the Switzer's Picnic Area turnout on the right side of the road. Then, the road descends briefly about a .5 mile and, at the bottom where it contours through Colby Canyon, you will find a dirt parking area on the left side of the road and signs for the Colby Canyon trailhead.

Location Map of Trailhead:
http://tinyurl.com/2tzlgl

Permits: No trail permits are required, but an Adventure Pass for parking is if parking at the trailhead. No permits are required to park a the rideshare point, which is a just a residential neighborhood. I you have an Adventure Pass, please bring it.

Ridesharing: I suggest we rideshare from the 210/2 rideshare point:
http://tinyurl.com/2s6w34

I will be coming from Santa Clarita, I5 south, then the 210 east, out to
Angeles Crest, so I can also rideshare anywhere along that route.

What to Bring: 2 liters of water, lunch, and sunscreen. Ladies may want to use gloves during the class 3 portion to keep their hands from getting roughed up.
Weather: The forcast for the 4700' level in the area can be found here. Subtract about 6 degrees for temps at the top.
http://tinyurl.com/2wdzph

Dogs: Will NOT be permitted on this hike due to the Class 3 sections.

ODC example #2...

This hike in the San Gabriel Mountains goes cross country up the west ridge instead of taking the trail from Red Box. It's not terribly long at 6-7 miles round trip but it climbs 2600 feet & is NOT FOR BEGINNERS. Some of the route is steep with loose footing & a couple portions involve scrambling up steep rocks using hands & feet. The views are terrific all the way up the ridge as well as from the top.

Meet 9:30 AM at the Colby Canyon trailhead on the left hand side of Hwy 2 (Angeles Crest Hwy), 1/2 mile past the turnoff to Switzer. Those who want to carpool can meet at 9:00 AM on Hwy 2 about 100 yards north of the 210 Fwy on the right hand side. You need an Adventure Pass to park at the trailhead. See you there.

Quite a difference between the 3. The difference between the 2 ODC ones is striking to me, especially the description of the class 3 sections. The Sierra Club one probably has a lot of info contained in it by virtue of its standardization, but you might have to do some additional reading to figure it out (e.g. what the M at the beginning of the description means).

And what's up with this comment...

"Ladies may want to use gloves during the class 3 portion to keep their hands from getting roughed up."

Posted: **Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:45 pm**

That example ascertains to me that the ODC is about replicating experiences....

The ODC examples are based upon previous experiences...

"The views are terrific all the way up the ridge as well as from the top"

Thats a nice guarantee...not such a nice guarantee for a cross-country travel is...

"Provided we follow the usual route and exercise proper care, these climbs can be done safely without technical equipment."

The Sierra Club doesnt say much of anything, implying there could a wide range of experiences on Class 3, to the point of the leaders becoming a key part of the trip.

So what happens if experience doesnt replicate and it ends up being a dense fog or gusting fast winds? Its vague as to what to expect.

But all 3 I think are descriptive enough even though they vary. I wouldnt want the ODC to take the addntl adventure out of it just to zero the possibility of someone stubbing their toe...at the end of the day, I look at it and say if something is wrong, the trip should be cancelled or the description changed. Cant see any reason to cancel those trips.

Posted: **Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:23 pm**

"Ladies may want to use gloves during the class 3 portion to keep their hands from getting roughed up."

That's really bad.

Posted: **Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:29 pm**

I have had good and bad luck with ODC. Only had a handful of people go on my ODC trips and they generally just email me rather than sign up. About 2/3 of the people have been good and the other 1/3 not. I generally don't include much detail in my postings, an attempt to weed out neophytes.

http://www.outdoorsclub.org/membership/ ... p?id=11399

Seems like a lot of trips posted by other people are geared toward social interaction ( singles club in the mountains ) and it would be nice to have more activity oriented trips.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:52 pm**

I've been leading hikes with ODC for about 5 years now and NEVER have I had anyone injured. I am a safety freak and safety is ALWAYS number ONE!! I believe that the leader is the one that each participants looks to regarding safety as well as making sure they get home that evening. I always has a sweep and generally I'm that person. I never leave until the last person is accounted for and I have a list of everyone who is on the outing.

Just because someone signs a waiver as with Sierra Club, that DOES NOT mean that they can not be sued in the event of an accident!!!! If you think by signing that waiver it get SC off the hook, you better think again. It does not!!

I do agree that anyone who leads a hike stating each person is on their own is out of their mind to even be leading hikes. Heck, anyone signing up on such a hike should think twice whether or not they should be going.

As far as the accident on Mt Wilson a few weeks back, I have stated on the ODC forum my views and I'm not going into it here. Some of you have posted photos of ice chutes along the trail but none of you have any idea how the accident even happened. If you knew, you would be shaking you head wondering how. The hike leader was doing nothing wrong. As a matter of fact he a very safe and responsible hike leader. I'd hike with him tomorrow!

I doubt there are any hard figures as to which group has more accidents? Even with the structure that the Sierra Club has, that is no guarantee you will arrive home safely! NONE what so ever. I know of people that have been on a SC outing and went with a friend. All they had to do was sign that paper. Nothing stated the hike may have been out of the range of their hiking ability. So just because they have you sign a waiver does that really get them off the hook if something happens???

So what group is safer? You have to make that call.
Most everyone who hikes on my outings are there because of one reason... the hike leader!!! They know my knowledge of these mountains as well as my thorough and painstaking time I talk about safety. I have to turn away people on every hike I lead because so many want in. Lucky me, eh??

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:03 pm**

Thanks for your input Richard.

Posted: **Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:52 pm**

Given that it's impossible for people to agree upon exactly who is responsible for what in individual vs group on the large scale (invidivdual vs government), not everyone is going to agree on the hiking scale (individual vs hike leader & hiking group)

So its good for everyone to have a choice of what type of group they are in. And just like in different cultures/governments of countries, there is a relationship between the culture/governance of a hiking group.

Sierra Club is 'stricter', and they certainly have better prepared leaders. But I find that they also are 'culturally' boring. Yeah yeah I'm generalizing.

I haven't done ODC, but I've done and now have been leading a lot of hikes on Meetup. Hiking is just a crumb of that website but our group has like 2,000 members.

People who are well-conditioned love my hikes. I try to make sure everyone understands the degree of difficulty of the hike, but it is almost impossible to ensure that everyone understands 100 % of the time. So is almost always 1 or 2 people who start the hike, but can't finish, or choose to go at their own pace.

The feedback is almost always good, in fact doing more problematic terrain such as Strawberry Peak or Monrovia Peak leads to even better response. Of course, these are hikes that are more likely to lead to injury. So I have no idea what sort of backlash would occur if someone was seriously hurt on one of my hikes.

I hope people expect me to not do anything stupid, but also have a sense of personal responsibility. No one can tell me that is has to be my responsiblity for everything. I'm not getting trained or paid for this. But people just have to be aware of that.

/end rambling

Posted: **Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:20 pm**

To beat this dead horse one more time...

I don't see the point of ODC. If they issue disclaimer after disclaimer that they aren't responsible for anything, then why does anyone pay them for doing something a free forum like this one can do? If you charge someone then it is reasonable for that person to expect something in return. I can see where this can lead to a misconception that some form of formal leadership is provided. But apparently not. It's "Thanks for the money, thanks for showing up, but you're on your own. Good luck!" instead.

Maybe it's a generational kind of thing. Maybe I'm just an old fart that just doesn't see the point. Heh.

Anyway, thanks for all your comments.

Posted: **Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:32 am**

HikeUp wrote:I don't see the point of ODC. If they issue disclaimer after disclaimer that they aren't responsible for anything, then why does anyone pay them for doing something a free forum like this one can do?

I see the point. In fact, I am hiking and backpacking again because of a similar group, the OCHBC. What these clubs provide is a way to explore the mountains and other hiking areas with almost no effort (aside from the walking). Someone else organizes everything, researches the hike, hopefully has done it before; all you do is show up at the trailhead.

It's very attractive for some people, maybe most people. I had never hiked any of the local Orange County trails before getting involved with the OCHBC, despite growing up here (now I am back up in the mountains again, but the OCHBC got me kick-started).

Similarly, I hadn't thought much about climbing Baldy in the winter before He219 invited me to come along with him in February. All I had to do was stand outside my house to be picked up. I've been up there once more since then and am planning another climb Saturday.

That's a really easy and attractive way to be introduced to something new.

If you charge someone then it is reasonable for that person to expect something in return. I can see where this can lead to a misconception that some form of formal leadership is provided. But apparently not. It's "Thanks for the money, thanks for showing up, but you're on your own. Good luck!" instead.

You shouldn't get hung up on the money. It's really only a nominal membership fee and mostly covers club expenses. OCHBC is non-profit, and accepts donations, no fees at all. The event leaders, of course, are unpaid.

I say all this as not only a club member (not of the ODC), but someone who, for whatever unknown masochistic reasons, finds himself organizing and leading a lot of OCHBC events (I am, for example, running half a dozen beginning backpack trips this summer for the OCHBC, in addition to a few more challenging hikes in the San Gorgonio Wilderness). You really would be surprised how much the membership enjoy these opportunities and how grateful they are. There is a tangible benefit to a club like this for people, probably the majority, who wouldn't consider doing anything like this without one.

Edit: For background, here are some examples of the sorts of hikes I lead and how I describe them:

A strenuous overnight;
A beginner backpack trip;
A more challenging (but not at all difficult) overnight.

EISPIRATEN

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