EISPIRATEN

Yesterday Nov 7th I took 5 newbies to the top of Baldy. They have never been about 7K and have never summitted a mountain before. We started at Manker flats TH. We went up the fire road to the ski resort then on to Devils' Backbone. My friend Mary Ann was having a hard time so I took all her contents from her backpack and put them in mine. It was super hard for her but she made it. We descended the ski hut route and then went to the lodge for dinner. Great day, my only complaint is that have you guys noticed the groups of Koreans lately that never get out of the way for you no matter how slow they are going. This is two weekends in a row that I have done Baldy and two weekends in a row a group of Koreans would not move I had to run up the hill and pass them. I asked nicely even said a few words in what little Korean I know like "Please" didn't even respond. Anyways my pics are below
http://picasaweb.google.com/Jeffscof/Ne ... yStepsHike#

Just yell "Annyong Pabo!" and run past them! Annyong along might be enough to catch 'em off guard.

I was on Baldy yesterday and ironically I was also taking a few newbies up Baldy. There was a huge (I mean 30+ people) group of older Asian people at the trailhead when we got there and probably a bazillion more already on the trail. These huge hiking groups, whether it's the Koreans or Meetups are just too much for these trails.

I don't know if it's because they're older and they feel that you need to respect them by not passing them or something but I had people on the descent who would not move out of the way no matter what. One guy even stopped and when he saw us coming, started walking again but at some slow ass pace like to block us. WTF??! Another guy was stopped and had has his poles and crap all over the trail while people were coming down and he made no effort to move anything of the way.

Tim wrote:There was a huge (I mean 30+ people) group of older Asian people at the trailhead when we got there and probably a bazillion more already on the trail. These huge hiking groups, whether it's the Koreans or Meetups are just too much for these trails. A lot of these people don't have even the simplest sense of trail etiquette or any kind of etiquette.

Large groups are terrible, but many people seem to prefer going about in herds.

As you guys know, I lead Meetup groups, but I typically cap my hikes at 12 or 15 people, and I've never had more than 12 people show up. Who the hell wants 20 or 30 or 50 people on the trail with you? Lots of people do, that's who.

It's part of being human, I guess, for a lot of people, maybe most people.

I think the big group thing is mainly because there are only a small number of people willing to organize hikes while most people just want to follow.

One problem with these big groups where everything is informal and the organizer is just an organizer is that the new people probably don't learn much about etiquette, ethics or even any wilderness skills because everyone is just following. I guess you can't blame the organizers since for liability reasons that's all they can do and it's not their job to babysit strangers anyway.

But with a smaller group, especially made of friends, you can teach them stuff or yell at them for doing something stupid and they're more likely to listen to you. Like the first time I ever played golf, my friend yelled at me for stepping in front of his putting line. I had no idea and I never did that again. In this case, the organizer is being more of a leader, which what we need to get these ethics and tribal knowledge passed down again and again.

i hate taking large groups, but that's easily avoidable by making the hikes hard

also I yell at people. that's fun.

as for things getting overcrowded, i agree it sucks. but at the same time, those people have just as much right to hike.

Zé wrote:as for things getting overcrowded, i agree it sucks. but at the same time, those people have just as much right to hike.

Not always. There are headcount limits on the permits for the San Gorgonio (12) and Cucamonga Wildernesses (15). Last time I camped at John's Meadow there was a group of at least 20 Boy Scouts there, so they were definitely not supposed to be there.

But no one enforces these limits. When I was at John's Meadow with all those Scouts, there was also a volunteer ranger there who didn't make a peep.

yeah I know about the permits of course, just saying that everyone has a right to get those permits. obviously, more new people getting them means less for others.

hell, socal peak bagging group has probably claimed at least 3 of the 12 vivian creek permits for this saturday!

I really don't mind the crowds, but it's the trail manners what bothers me. If I ask nicely in English and then even go out of my way to say a few words in your Native language..Their just rude people...

i agree that there are way too many people that don't know the first thing about trail etiquette.

the first Meetup i did was Baldy via the village. just before i summited there was a group coming down that barreled past me and made me move over to get out of their way. Wrong! btw... they were white, like me.

i sent an email to the organizer about this and asked that in the future she would educate the hikers prior to the hike about the right-of-way on a trail and trail etiquette. she agreed and said she would. i also noticed there was a thread on the website about trail manners.

obviously it's impossible to educate everyone or hope they practice etiquette while out there, but if there is anyone that speaks Korean and could talk to these particular hikers or better yet, speak with the group leaders about this, it would be greatly appreciated. a Korean hiker told me that there are ten organized hiking groups that do IHC on the weekends.

i also prefer to hike in smaller groups for many reasons, but would hate to start avoiding trails because of the confluence of rude hikers.

simonov wrote:

Zé wrote:as for things getting overcrowded, i agree it sucks. but at the same time, those people have just as much right to hike.

Not always. There are headcount limits on the permits for the San Gorgonio (12) and Cucamonga Wildernesses (15). ...

Maybe the fairest solution to Baldy getting invaded like this is setting up a permit system, just like San Gorgonio.

You have a permit, go ahead. You don't...The challenge is going to be enforcing it....

This is a very sensitive subject to everyone who shares the same trail for differenrt reasons. There are casual hikers, trail runners, group hikers, and hikers training for other mountains with varying abilities. There isn't any good solutions to satisfy everyone here except to educate ourself to share common etiquette and manners on the trail.

I have contacted Mr. Cho, President of Korean Alpine Federation in America, for getting some assistance about this issue since Korean community has very well organized and largest hiking club network in So. Cal. to send out this message very effectively. The hiking is the most well rooted outdoor activity in the community. We envy young and old Korean couple or group hiking happyly together on the trail but some of their conduts might have presented some unconfortable feelings to other hikers.

The postings on this board are valid and real feelings of some hikers.
Counter postings from others are also fair and valid.

I got a call from Mr. John Soun(?), one of the directors of Korean Alpine Federation in America, yesterday. He was very much appreciative about
presenting the issue to them openly and contructively. He assured me that
his organization will review the issue at board meeting and post on their website to educate their members and other hiking clubs.

I have even suggested that they can put some article on hiking etiquette on Korean community newspapers because Korean community has very strong cultural tie with mountains. Here, we have Cub scout, Boy scout, and Sierra club, and many other organization to educate hikers as just outdoor sports. If there is a probelm with some hikers, we can openly tell them how we feel about them directly without any hesitation. But some culture, such a conduct is not well received. It is very hard to communicate with.

I was very pleased with John's very positive attitude about improving the issues for veveryone who shares same trail.

This may be a small effort but at least we put ourself one step forward.

Thank you Norma for your positive way of thinking.

I have been hiking last 5 years in Mt. Baldy area only. Korean hikers taught me how to breath,how to walk,how to put carmpons,how to self arrest,how to train for other mountains, invited me for lunch,and took me for other mountains. It is a hard thing for me to contact them but as a friend I must do because I owed them a lot.

Shin

Thank you Shin, that was a very nice opening post.

I have Korean friends and for the most part they are very polite and respectful, I believe it is part of the their culture. I'm sure all that is needed here is some education as to expectations when hiking on California's mountain trails.

Hi Shin, I believe I met you on the Baldy (Kurt Wedberg) group hike last week.
Thanks for your efforts--this is an excellent start. No matter the cultural differences, we share common ground (literally!) in our love for the mountains.
I have noticed that the younger Korean hikers seem to be much more accomodating and easier to communicate with, so I'm optimistic for the future.

Shin,

THANK YOU for being so proactive with this issue. my words may have been kind but i did nothing with them. you did. i appreciate and respect you for it.

Happy Thanksgiving and let's hope for a positive change.

norma

Shin -

I would also like to say thanks for all of us who frequent Baldy & Icehouse trails - you've stepped up in a positive manner. Let's hope we can all just get along out there. A little education and a little ettiquette sprinkled in with some kindness will hopefully go a long way.

I look forward to seeing you many times again up in our local mountains.

Your friend,
Jay