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20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:52 am
by Taco
I feel I am taking some sort of risk by posting this TR up, as I am sure a great many SoCal hikers are unfamiliar with its content, due to today's political climate. Being the kind and happy adminerator that I am, if you can't figure something out or have a question, please ask it before you come to any conclusions.




My friends and I get together every so often to do some survival training. The premise is usually along the lines of finding water sources, establishing communications, and reporting on general conditions of any area. We also conduct simple training in small unit tactics, basically working in a small team of men, unsupported by outside forces or groups.

This is one of the only ways ex-Mil folks with Infantry-related professions can keep up their skills, as these skills are very perishable. For most training situations, we carry airsoft guns, which look real, but only fire 6mm plastic BB's, using air charged by an electric motor. One can purchase biodegradable BB's, which break down over time, as they are made from whatever the heck they are, and not plastic. Less waste = good.

Here is the WikiPedia article on Airsoft: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airsoft


Stockton Flats is a great place to train in these areas, as it's quiet and receives low traffic. Often times I end up carrying out a fair amount of trash.

This area is also popular with hunters.


-=Techno-Babble and Notes=-

On the 18th, we headed to Stockton Flat to check out a small peak I've wanted to scout for a while. I had initially wanted to check the southernmost extension of water sources in Coldwater Canyon, as I often hear a waterfall flowing there, yet have not gone in to check it out myself. We changed plans as time went by, as usual. We did not check out the watersource. Instead, we sat around resting for a while, and bounded back to the road, across the wash, and then back to the truck.

We hiked up the small peak, which I labelled "Observation Point" (how creative) a few years ago. This peak is essential for any group staying in the area for any length of time, and if that group travels by vehicles other than motorcycle, it is completely necessary to hold this ground. It has a near 360 degree view and is basically only accessible by foot, as the slopes are steep scree and dirt with no major trails to support so much as a bike. The south 'face' drops off steeply, up to about 60 degrees (in places) of broken up rock (LOTS of shale) and dirt with plenty of brush. The whole hill is covered in brush, and a ton of Buckthorn (yay fun). The distance from the long summit ridge to the primary road (3n06) is about 250-300 meters, within rifle range. Controlling this point means controlling Stockton Flat, period. One can see all the way down to the rifle range where Lytle Creek Road loses its pavement and turns to gravel and is named 3n06.

The most secure way to remove OPFOR from this ridgeline would be a light mechanized movement from the southwest, with APC/IFV's moving north on Baldy Road from Baldy Notch, with dismounts providing long range rifle support from the end of the ridge, near where it meets the road. A light infantry team tasked with holding the ridge would have a hard time repelling an attack from this angle, due to bringing AT gear (heavy) up the ridge. One or two APC's would be able to put some serious pressure on an occupying team, while their dismounts would move on the objective and clear it with support provided by Designated Marksmen and the APC's weapons. The enemy would be forced east or northeast, off the hill.

The ridge receives cell phone reception (in case you get stuck in the area). :lol:


After we moved off the hill, we simulated an ambush coming from the ridgeline (rather comically, at the start), simulating our need to GTFO (Get The Fuck Out). Team broke the simulated contact, and bounded back to the road. Spotted two dirtbikes and one white Toyota Tundra pickup moving towards our position. Due to heavy brush, we heard the vehicles before we saw them. Bikes passed within 200 meters.


Team laid prone while bikes passed. Truck pulled off further east next to the hill, in one of the camping spots. Team provided cover while individual members crossed road. Team needs work on this, as communication was fractured, and spacing was bad. Taco and Tim stuck together while John was too far east, and out of communication with rest of team.This was my fault, as I bounded up a different line than John. Bounding overwatch across riverbed, reaching other side without issue. Tim held position, Taco met up with John, team moved back to Tim's position. Bikes rode past again, heading back east, leaving area altogether.

Team headed west, slowly patrolling in riverbed (also need work on this!!!), reaching our vehicle. Cleared vehicle (practically speaking, no broken windows! Yay!), and broke down gear to exfil. End of a great day of training.

On the drive down, we tried to help a couple remove their Infiniti G35/Skyline sedan from 3n06. They had made a U-turn, and got the car stuck deep in gravel and rocks. The G35 is a luxury sedan which is not suited to this road at all. We blew through some 550 cord trying to get them out. A pickup truck arrived just as we finished up. Hope everything went well for them!


Pictures with Notes

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Observation Point

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J behind a log

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J in his mix and match camo, which worked very well for him.

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T in current Army pattern ACU, which doesn't work for crap anywhere except on the friggin' moon, and in rocky washes.

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T moving up while J takes a knee behind concealment.

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J on the ridge, nearly skylined from most perspectives. We would not want to do this typically, but a compromise is reached when folks are not "in the groove" yet, physically and/or mentally. It takes a while to settle back into a groove, and be more alert and fit.

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Looking towards Lytle Creek Ridge

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J at high ready, and Dawson Peak

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Telegraph Peak and the northern ridge

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"BS" on the summit of Observation Point

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Tele again

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Photoshoot for my buddy, who is a custom bladesmith up north. He sends me blades to try out. I currently have one small knife (1in blade) to try out this winter as a good small climbing knife. Simple design with a good belly. Cuts cord well, and the big belly also helps you spread cheese or other spreads, good for food prep, which is a biggy for me for a 'climbing knife'.

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Looking towards Wrightwood

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T out in the open. A camo is only as good as its use, and where you position yourself, but ACU is ineffective here regardless.

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Sliding down a scree slope (very loud)

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J after we crossed the riverbed

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J clearing the truck. On the practical side, no broken glass!!!! :-)

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Yours truly providing cover

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Typical setup for summer/dry mountain work. Special gear (which I didn't bring this time) for the SG's would include a very lightweight rack, consisting of one set of nuts (doubles on mid range), 6 or so sewn slings in subdued colors (various lengths to 48"), 2x cordelettes, Black Diamond Alpine Bod harness, a handful of biners, three locking biners, belay device (Petzl Reverso 3 for me), and one dynamic rope. Winter brings crampons and ice tools or one ice axe into the equation. Axe or tools in the SG's really depends more on personal preferance, though a single long axe is most practical. Difference for training is, you don't really get a choice what you descend or ascend. ;-)

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Trying to pull a G35 out!

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:05 pm
by Funyan005
This makes me miss my airsofting days. Looks like fun work/practice!

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:11 pm
by Tim
No offense here, even looks interesting. Something different to look at, I suppose. Skills are precious. It takes a lot of hard work to earn them and like you said they go away if you don't use them or keep up the training.

Between terrorism, the dollar going down the toilet and the Fed printing money nonstop, I wouldn't be surprised if certain events causes society to collapse, either partially or totally. It might be a remote chance, but it's greater today than it was before. When that happens, the people in the cities could turn feral. Your skills would be very valuable then.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:29 pm
by simonov
Where's the SKS love?

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:24 pm
by Taco
Funyan, I played airsoft in high school. Most people play it like paintball, which completely ruins the experience for me. Using it as a training aide works wonders.

Tim, true that. I know times are somewhat crummy now, but I could never predict when things go downhill. That said, it would be wise to know what to do if you needed to fend for yourself or family.

Simonov, I h8 SKS's. :-)

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:50 pm
by edenooch
IS there a sniper in your unit? :idea:

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:16 pm
by Elwood
Very, very cool Taco. I was on that Upper Lytle Road ridge this afternoon.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:17 pm
by Ze Hiker
cool stuff, definitely good skills to have!

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:31 pm
by Taco
wrote:cool stuff, definitely good skills to have!
Gotta defend Cleveland somehow, right?

Why the hell would anyone defend that place?

I've never been there, but if it's anything like New Jersey...

Eric, yus. I am teh leet sniporz.

Elwood, going for a cruise on 3N31?

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:16 pm
by Kit Fox
If I was out on a casual hike and saw a group like yours, my initial impression would be, "Did I just approach a Marijuana grow operation, and run into the guards?"


Kudos for practicing your skills. A great book or two to add to the library since the topic of survival was brought up are Cody Lundin's pair.

When all hell breaks loose
98.6 degrees, the art of keeping your a#$ alive

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:50 pm
by cougarmagic
Cody Lundin is the real deal - I took a class from him in Arizona once. The books are great too. He's the only survivalist I know of that offers truly practical information.

As for the original topic, hey - whatever makes you happy. No judgement here from the girl who likes to look at animal poop. :lol:

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:55 pm
by Ze Hiker
TacoDelRio wrote: Why the hell would anyone defend that place?

I've never been there, but if it's anything like New Jersey...
no worse than people from the INLAND EMPIRE, lol

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:17 pm
by Taco
True, Ze. The 9-BRO-9 area code.

Harumph: http://www.codylundin.com/
I'll have to read up on him. More used to Tom Brown, Ray Mears kinda stuff.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:25 am
by edenooch
i just watch les stroud and bear grylls re-runs!
Does this sound like enough to join your terrorists training camp taco?

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:35 am
by Taco
Yes. I will send you the information packet right noWAIT A SECOND...
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Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:24 am
by Kit Fox
TacoDelRio wrote:True, Ze. The 9-BRO-9 area code.

Harumph: http://www.codylundin.com/
I'll have to read up on him. More used to Tom Brown, Ray Mears kinda stuff.

I'm also a huge fan of Ray Mears Bushcraft (way before Les Stroud).
A few videos of his adventures you get an idea what his courses are all about.





He actually lives an "off the grid life."

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:56 pm
by Taco
HAHA I love what they brought!

I dig his house. He's also easy to listen to, as he's pretty moderate. Super cool.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:24 pm
by Hikin_Jim
The scary thing about Taco's write up is that I understood most of it. Not too bad considering that all my training was early/mid 80's Soviet era stuff. I guess the basics don't change that much. A little tough to do bounding overwatch with three guys there, Taco. You've barely got one fire team let alone two. :wink:


Cody Lundin is pretty cool. His 98.6 book is pretty good. He's more focused on desert (pretty understandable since he's based out of Prescott Valley, AZ), but he's got some good general applicability. Couple of fallacies he quotes as facts (like the 85% heat loss through your head myth), but he's got the right idea -- and he's practical.

What's his "All Hell Breaks Loose" book like? Not quite as much first hand experience with that subject matter I imagine.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:16 am
by Taco
6 would be ideal, old school Vietnam-era Recon Team organization (LRRP/SOG setup, One-Zero, One-One, etc). Not enough folks made it out for this setup, so 3 it was. In theory, 3 should be arright, not for D/A or anything, just area recon. 2-cover, 1-move. At the extreme extent of small-unit tactics.

It's all about smoothing out problems and 'making mistakes' now, so it's professional later.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:22 am
by Hikin_Jim
TacoDelRio wrote:6 would be ideal, old school Vietnam-era Recon Team organization (LRRP/SOG setup, One-Zero, One-One, etc). Not enough folks made it out for this setup, so 3 it was. In theory, 3 should be arright, not for D/A or anything, just area recon. 2-cover, 1-move. At the extreme extent of small-unit tactics.

It's all about smoothing out problems and 'making mistakes' now, so it's professional later.
The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:23 am
by Kit Fox
Hikin_Jim wrote: What's his "All Hell Breaks Loose" book like? Not quite as much first hand experience with that subject matter I imagine.
Synopsis

Survival expert Cody Lundin's new book, When All Hell Breaks Loose: Stuff You Need To Survive When Disaster Strikes is what every family needs to prepare and educate themselves about survival psychology and the skills necessary to negotiate a disaster whether you are at home, in the office, or in your car.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:56 pm
by Taco
Hikin_Jim wrote:
TacoDelRio wrote:6 would be ideal, old school Vietnam-era Recon Team organization (LRRP/SOG setup, One-Zero, One-One, etc). Not enough folks made it out for this setup, so 3 it was. In theory, 3 should be arright, not for D/A or anything, just area recon. 2-cover, 1-move. At the extreme extent of small-unit tactics.

It's all about smoothing out problems and 'making mistakes' now, so it's professional later.
The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war.
Absolutely.

I wanna kick training up a few notches. Gonna do some loooooong E&E things, looooooooooooooooong hikes with big numbers and whatnot.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:36 pm
by Hikin_Jim
TacoDelRio wrote:
Hikin_Jim wrote:
TacoDelRio wrote:6 would be ideal, old school Vietnam-era Recon Team organization (LRRP/SOG setup, One-Zero, One-One, etc). Not enough folks made it out for this setup, so 3 it was. In theory, 3 should be arright, not for D/A or anything, just area recon. 2-cover, 1-move. At the extreme extent of small-unit tactics.

It's all about smoothing out problems and 'making mistakes' now, so it's professional later.
The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war.
Absolutely.

I wanna kick training up a few notches. Gonna do some loooooong E&E things, looooooooooooooooong hikes with big numbers and whatnot.
E&E as in EDRE? Gonna set up a compound and a blue light ... nah, that's probably waaay before your time. lol.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:05 pm
by Ze Hiker
I'm gonna hire a bunch of midgets to ambush Taco on his next rendezvous

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:40 pm
by Hikin_Jim
wrote:I'm gonna hire a bunch of midgets to ambush Taco on his next rendezvous
Chipmunks. Hire chipmunks. The fierce ones. From Cleveland.
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Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:44 pm
by Hikin_Jim
Kit Fox wrote:
Hikin_Jim wrote: What's his "All Hell Breaks Loose" book like? Not quite as much first hand experience with that subject matter I imagine.
Synopsis

Survival expert Cody Lundin's new book, When All Hell Breaks Loose: Stuff You Need To Survive When Disaster Strikes is what every family needs to prepare and educate themselves about survival psychology and the skills necessary to negotiate a disaster whether you are at home, in the office, or in your car.
How did it strike you personally? Pretty on the level? Wilderness stuff is right up Cody's alley. Does he do a pretty good job with general emergency/disaster prep?

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:01 pm
by Hikin_Jim
Kit Fox wrote:A few videos of his adventures you get an idea what his courses are all about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALUTDJlhKb8
That video series illustrates the one thing I really disagree with Cody about. He has the "tribe" :roll: hold off drinking creek water until they can boil it. That's crazy. If you're in a survival situation in the desert and you find water, you generally want to drink unless there's some obvious, immediate reason not to. One would particularly want to drink water from a flowing creek as shown in the video series.

There's a myth that the water in N. America is so bad that you must treat before drinking no matter what. Not so. The water in N. America in undeveloped areas is generally good. Even if you did pick up giardia or something, you're not normally going to show symptoms for several days. Drink the water and worry about clearing out the giardia after you're home safe and sound. The penalties for dehydration and heat stroke are so much more severe, immediate, and permanent than the penalties for picking up a bug in the water that I can't imagine why Cody stresses water treatment so much.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:43 pm
by Taco
Hikin_Jim wrote:
TacoDelRio wrote:
Hikin_Jim wrote:The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war.
Absolutely.

I wanna kick training up a few notches. Gonna do some loooooong E&E things, looooooooooooooooong hikes with big numbers and whatnot.
E&E as in EDRE? Gonna set up a compound and a blue light ... nah, that's probably waaay before your time. lol.
Escape and Evasion.

Midgets don't stand a chance.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:56 pm
by Kit Fox
Hikin_Jim wrote: How did it strike you personally? Pretty on the level? Wilderness stuff is right up Cody's alley. Does he do a pretty good job with general emergency/disaster prep?
I was intrigued enougth that I read it 2 1/2 times. If he doesn't know that answer, he tells you straight out in the book.

Re: 20090918 Stockton Flat Survival Shtuff

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:10 pm
by Hikin_Jim
TacoDelRio wrote:
Hikin_Jim wrote:
TacoDelRio wrote: Absolutely.

I wanna kick training up a few notches. Gonna do some loooooong E&E things, looooooooooooooooong hikes with big numbers and whatnot.
E&E as in EDRE? Gonna set up a compound and a blue light ... nah, that's probably waaay before your time. lol.
Escape and Evasion.
Oops, I meant SERE not EDRE. Duh. But yes, E&E.

Years ago, the Army used to set up a compound run by "the enemy" (OPFOR). They would rotate troops through just to expose them to what it was like to be a POW. They would be given E&E training prior to being "captured" and encourage to try to escape. Problem was that sometimes the bored OPFOR guys would get a little "over enthusiastic" in preventing escapes. Apparently injuries of this type don't play well in Peoria. lol. In typical Army fashion, they eliminated the training.