EISPIRATEN

I've been reading some of the uh..."ambitious" plans for hikes lately ....and thinking about my own abilities and limitations. Currently, I can comfortably hike 10-12 miles, with about 3,000' gain. Beyond that (in distance, or elevation change) things start to really hurt.

Now, I know that mostly, conditioning is just a matter of hiking more, more often, but I wondered if it's weird that I still have energy to go farther, but my feet, hips, and sometimes knees, start to hurt. , Oh, and if carrying a heavy pack, (30 pounds or more) my back hurts, too.

So, my question is, those of you in really great shape, when you get "tired", are you just tired, or is it that pain slows you down? And does conditioning toughen up your feet, or does it just make your muscles work better?

I don't know if I need more workouts, or just new shoes..! Does that make sense?

hey,

I'm no expert but i think everyone experiences those aches and pains (unless you're rick kent). Doing hikes with a heavy pack more often is a good way to strengthen those muscles, or just start working out the muscles that tend to hurt you the most on hikes. Also, cardio is probably one of the best things to have in your toolbox. Long distance running or swimming is excellent. Try running at a sustainable pace for as long as you can, then gradually increase mileage. Mixing it up will also help, having a regular running schedule is good but having intense activities in between or days you do sprints or play a sport are good ways to keep your muscles "confused" and constantly at the ready. Even with all this, you also need to find a day or two a week to just relax and allow your body time to repair and recuperate. Liz could probably tell you more. She sounds knowledgeable. Or maybe Rick Kent

oh, one thing i forgot to mention... i'm sure that if any of us do end up completing the death march, we'll be in a considerable amount of pain

I agree a lot with what Zach says above. But as there are many different people with as many different types of physical characteristics, there are probably an uncountable number of different training techniques.

I for one, am someone who can hike in the 12-20 mile range (depending on elevation gain) with normal fatigue. At the end of a hike of that distance, I feel exhausted, but I am not totally wasted. I used to feel a lot of pain in my right hip after a long and demanding hike. But joint pain like that, as I am told from doctors and trainers, is something that just needs to be conditioned to meet the demands from long hikes. So by that nature, getting in as many conditioning hikes as possible will soon eliminate the hip pain. But, on the same token, there may be some people, especially older people, who have just "worn out" some of there joints and there isn't much they can do any more to condition those areas.

As far as muscle aches, back aches, pulled tendons, etc, most of these are simply brought on by over exertion, lack of conditioning, lack of warming up, sometimes lack of proper eating and lack of proper amount of fluids in your body. So these can be avoided or reduced by eating enough and drinking enough before a hike. Also, doing various excercises before and between each trip will greatly reduce the soreness in muscles. I am one who will admit I have very poor eating habits and I am also very bad at drinking enough water. So these are my downfalls on many of my hikes and one which I have been focusing on and have noticed a tremendous difference. In fact the difference has been so great that I have experienced no sore muscles in my last 10 hikes or so.

Those that know me, know I have been experiencing great pain in the inside of my hip area, but I know from years of playing college sports, and many other activities, this is not a pulled muscle or injured tendon. I actually have an appointment for an MRI next week.

As far as feet go, yes - 90% of the pain in feet can be eliminated by proper fitting boots and the corrct type of insoles. I used to get sore feet in my mountaineering boots, but the last few trips I've had with them, I've had "Superfeet" insoles and it was like night and day. My feet were so comfortable, I never had to pay a thought to them the entire trip. I now use them in my regular hiking boots and they are nearly as comfortable as wearing plush slippers. Well, maybe not that good, but very close.

I've been on many big hikes or climbs lately, and when I've returned from the trips, on a couple occassions, I've actually hit the gym afterwards because I still had energy. I would like to think that was because I've been eating and drinking properly. Plus, by doing some light excercise after a big hike, I haven't given my muscles time to tighten. I believe the warm down excercises really help keep the muscles and tendons loose and limber. I am not a runner, I hate running, and I despise pounding my feet on hard pavement. So for cardio conditioning, I stick to various workouts in the gym. Mostly the life cycle, rowing machine, and a lot of raquetball and basketball. But anything will work. Pick a couple things you enjoy doing, and keep at it. Liz (on this site) is a physical trainer and she has turned me on to "spinning". According to Liz, "spinning" classes are 10 times better than life cycles. Another thing I want to start is the stair climber for those steep ascents.

This is what has worked for me. Try a couple things, find what works for you and start with that as a foundation. Slowly, as you find new things, add them to your conditioning arsenal.

And whenever you're ready, you got a ton of guys on here, especially me, that are ready and willing to go on nearly any hike. Big or small, long or short, I love getting out. So if you ever need a conditioning hike, you know how to contact me.

Remember, we're not getting any younger, our bodies are getting worn out, so when all else fails, ask your doctor for 1200mg IBProfin.

~EnFuego

Yes! It's time to step up and change your workouts. EnFuego is right on. Spin classes are a great way to strength not only your cardio, but also to strengthen your legs. I recommend you include leg specific strength training exercises, such as lunges, squats, step ups, etc. Machines are fine, but you get more out of exercises where you have to use your own body weight and balance, plus added weight of a barbell or dumbbells. For hikers, I strongly recommend you do a variety of leg exercises, including doing some things with heavy weights, other balancing moves with little or no weight, and plyometrics or dynamic moves. If you don't know plyo, let me know. It's good for us hiking folk as it helps to strengthen our joints as well as muscles. If your knees still bother you, use hiking poles, especially for downhill.

In order to help your back, I recommend you train your core. None of those silly, rushed sit ups or quick crunches. In order to really strengthen abs, focus on quality. Move slower than you think you need to. Contract abs, pulling them in nice and deep. It's all about form. If you want some ideas, ask me. A strong core will allow you to stand and hike with better posture and your back is less likely to fatigue after a long day on the trail. Once I started really training my abs, I felt so much better! I can still stand tall and strong after a day of carrying a 60 lb pack. (Not bad for my 132 lb body.)

As for your feet, EnFuego is correct, It could be your shoes/boots. Depending on where the pain is, it could be an overuse injury. Or you may need to stretch your feet after hikes.

Finally, that brings me to stretching. It is very important that we maintain (and improve) our flexibility. As a Trainer I see what happens to bodies if they go 10, 20, 30 + years without stretching. It is not good. Flexibility training keeps our muscles long and pliable. We tend to injure ourselves less, and recover from little pulls and strains more quickly. On a weekly basis, I do four, 60 minute strength training sessions, two spin classes, two 12-16 mile hikes and I do some Pilates. I also take one Yoga class and do some good stretching on my own several days per week. Most people, especially men (sorry guys) really underestimate the importance of flexibility training. Trust me, it makes a huge difference!

Let me know if I can give you anymore help.

I'm young, so I don't know how much this counts.

I'll start with feet. If I am going to do a real climb (steep, requires gear), and need to wear stiff boots for the climb, but there's a long approach, I typically bring soft soled shoes to wear on the approach. I find that's worth the weight. It cuts down on pain and allows you to move more efficiently.

To condition for a season, I typically start running 40-50 miles a week for the kind of route I enjoy climbing. I did not do this last year due to a car accident, and my knees being far more troublesome than they have in the past. PT helps me enjoy the scenery more, instead of staring at my feet while panting.

A heavier pack than normal on a longer or harder route than you intend to do often helps. Military mindset is, train harder to fight hard. I know I have a 15 mile hike coming up, so I train by doing a 20 mile run, or something along those lines.

Biking is a great way to get your cardio in if you've got tricky joints, IMHO at least.

I find that the older you are, the harder you have to work at keeping in shape especially if you are 71 like me. I hike every day and get a minimum of 1500 feet of elevation gain. With my bigger hike on Saturdays that adds up to over 10,000 feet of gain per week. I am retired so this is possible. This way you can not get out of shape.
After doing Skyline I have to rest for three days.

In terms of cardiovascular training (which I'm not sure is what your asking about), definitely the best way to improve hiking performance would be to walk on a treadmill at 15% grade (usually that's the highest they go). Also, the stairclimber (not stairmaster) works very well.

I mention those 2 because they will be the most similar in muscle action to what you will encounter when hiking, therefore the training will be the most specific. Running, cyclic, etc, definitely help too, but they are not as specific. However, cyclic does have the benefit of being low impact, so you have to consider all the variables. I personally do a lot of incline running and then 'hike' on a treadmill at 20-25% grade with a 35 lb pack, but that's pretty extreme, anything that taxes your heart will do.

In terms of joint pain, of course we can't diagnose those issues specifically, but certainly some resistance training may help. Core and strengthening legs would be the main things. Although stiff like squats are nice since you'll use your core muscles too, I wouldn't say they're necessary. One can get significant leg workout simple using a leg press, and then working on core separately.

All leg presses are not created equally. Make sure your feet are not in a position too posterior (toward your back) or else this will stress the knee more. Hopefully the line of action of the machine also for the muscle demands to be balanced between the quadricep, hamstring, and glutes.

There are many core exercises you could look up and try, and these are important because they provide stabilization between the pelvis and trunk, which is the area most associated with postural misalignment that can lead to pain in other areas. By strengthening these muscles, your lower back pain should ease, and it even might have an effect on knee/hip pain.

In terms of foot pain, I'm not sure exactly what foot pain your are having, but if you're like me, after 20 miles or so I get the generic foot pain that says "I just don't want to be standing / walking anymore". It just seems like something that would come after a lot of pounding on the bottom. I recently wondered how I could reduce the pain at higher miles, and I thought back to the one summer I was a cashier at a grocery store, where I'd have to stand all day.

I realized I would get the same annoying dull pain then, and that just standing would lead to such a thing. So when I did a hike 2 weeks ago (23 miles on rocky terrain), I made sure that when I was waiting for people, I didn't stand to wait, I got off my feet and took away the pressure on them. This actually worked really well, and after 23 miles I felt no foot pain! I could have kept on hiking without annoyance, and that's the first time that has happened at that distance!

I think you can build up a tolerance too. Hiking once a week, gradually adding mile should help. Proper shoes can help as well, of course. The more padding, the more comfortable you will be, in general. Hiking shoes aren't that comfortable in general (compare to running shoes!) but of course you need to balance comfort with support and stability.

Cougar- how old are you?

me 51, so things starting to hurt more

sewellymon

I'm turning 50 this year and have only been hiking for the better part of 4 years. I like doing long distance hikes about 4 times a year. To get ready I typically do a bunch of steep hikes (Bear Canyon on Baldy, Vivian Creek on San G, things like that) two weeks prior to the big hike. On the weeks leading up to the big hikes I do extensive leg workouts up to 4 days prior than rest or only do 20 minutes on the stairmaster at easy levels to keep the legs fresh.

Prior to that I do as many medium hikes Baldy Ski hut to summit, Ice House Canyon, Saddleback, Devil's Slide to San J, anything that is elevation and distance with a pack that is heavier than I actually need so that my body adjust to the load.

Then depending on the location of the water sources I either plan to pump water through a filter or I go on a "Stash and dash hike" at a point that I will cross on the long distance hike and put water in a bladder under some rocks, well off the trail - leave no food as critters and USFS (doesn't appreciate that).

The advice from Liz and EnFuego is great, conditioning in the gym will give you added stamina but it's not the same as getting out and doing the tougher stuff - Bear Canyon to the summit of Baldy is just under 6,000 feet in just over 6.23 miles - if you can do that and not be completely exhuasted then you will start being able to do even tougher stuff. Especially if you can handle it in the snow conditions we have going on right now. Saddleback on the Holy Jim trail is 8 miles each way and you gain about 4,000 feet - it's not as easy as it sounds as it is quite dry out there on that trial.

One of the toughest hikes that I did during the winter of 2006 was a section if the PCT from Cajon Pass (15 Freeway) all the way up over Wright Mountain to the Acorn Trail that drops down into Wrightwood. The distance was around 23.8 miles and the elevation gain was only about 3,500 over the first 21 miles, what was difficult was that it was uphill almost the whole hike, the only down sections were small ones until the very end when I reached the Acorn Trail - there was very little snow (less than four inches in limited spots).

Hikes like that help build my endurance to go do other hikes. I do not think I will ever catch up to the abilities of AlanK, his son or guys like Rick Kent but I like to push myself to do some things outside the norm so that if I want to go do something outside my comfort level I will be more willing and I will not be a burden to the other hikers, climbers that want to go as well.

Another factor that I find super useful for me is fueling. I use "Hammer Nutrition products" - I put powders in my "Naglene Bottle" that are composed of "Complex Carbohydrates" that take the body the minimum amount of water and time to digest - giving my muscles what they need, leaving more H2O (hydration) in my system where it is needed, thus allowing me to cover more distance with carrying less food and water. I'm not advocating any products, these just happen to be the ones that I like. Liz could give you much more information on the proper way and what to consume on "Long Distance and/or any Hikes" than I could. I just find that I have to carry less, feel better when I'm done and recover quicker. There's also products that you can consume directly after the hikes to speed up the recovery process.

Lastly, the most important thing for me is having "Bailout spots" and an understanding with everyone that is going that if anyone wants to bail at any given time it's ok, no questions asked.

Hope to see you out there.
Lilbitmo

Wow - thanks for all these great responses. So...what you are all saying is there's no easy, magical fix???

I'm 34. I don't have any specific joint problems, no injuries, arthritis, that sort of thing. I was a gymnast when I was younger, so that may have done some wear and tear on my cartilage, particularly my knees (which don't bother me all that much, it's just an example) I'm pretty sure I have plantar fasciitis, but that is self-diagnosed. Taping my feet seems to help a whole lot.

I've never liked hiking in boots - I always feel better with low, soft-soled hiking shoes or sneakers better. Having my feet all confined and not able to move my ankles normally makes me crazy. But I think the lack of protection to the bottom of my feet might be some of the problem there.

I actually tried barefoot hiking for a while - that was ....interesting.

Fuel - yes, I'm learning this makes a huge difference - much more than I ever imagined. I get pretty anorexic when hiking (not in the "I want to look like a runway model" way - in the "all this food tastes like dirt" way, esp. at high altitudes). But I've been forcing myself to eat almonds, cheese, meat, etc, and drinking Gatorade or even just lemonade rather than water, so I'm getting constant sugar.

Ze's recommendation to get off your feet when you can is great - especially because I've noticed that I don't tend to sit down, even when others are taking a break. I'm wandering around, taking pictures, looking for tracks, and I could take a break once in a while! And that generic foot pain is exactly what I'm talking about.

Vitamin I - I can't stand the stuff. It rots my stomach like you wouldn't believe. Strangely, I can take aspirin just fine though...

So I think the verdict is that I've been under the idea that hiking is its own conditioning - when in fact extra exercises and stretching would help a whole lot (duh!).

One other big thing - I notice I have a psychological block. If I know a hike is at the top end of my comfort zone, I psych myself out "Oh, this is going to be tough - I'm going to get tired, and be in pain..." and if I don't know the mileage or gain, I just enjoy hiking and don't think about it. Of course this doesn't mean I could hike 30 miles as long as no one told me it would be that far - but it is a real thing that I've noticed.

Liz - I've really enjoyed your trip reports and seeing your plans for future hikes! I didn't know you were a trainer - and I've never known one who knew about hiking (REALLY knew about hiking...) I don't like to abuse "free advice" from a pro - so I think I'll contact you about maybe some real training...sounds like that could be good for me!

As an aside, I have never been a peak bagger - I couldn't care less about getting to a certain spot on a map, or a number - and I'm not at all judging people who do have that drive, it's just something I've never had, so it doesn't motivate me. My motivation has always been to see places I haven't seen before. But if I'm really tired, and only 300' from the peak, I can turn right around and not think twice about it.

See - now I'm even tired from writing this post! Before I make less sense, I'll call it a night...

Thanks again for your advice, everybody!

The people who responded so far provided a lot of good information. I just second a lot of it.

For what it's worth, I am 57 and like to say that I have been running more or less every day for a bit over 42 years. I used to run more, but I rarely go over 5 miles any more. I've run half a dozen marathons, but the last one was in 1977. I claim that the crappy shoes of the 60s and 70s are to blame for the fact that I get overuse injuries if I push too far.

I also like bicycling, which I call a low impact sport -- between impacts. My big endurance sport is hiking. The best training for hiking is hiking, but I rarely get out more than once, maybe twice, in a week except on a few hiking trips per year.

If I am going to do a particularly hard hike, I like to build up to it on previous weekends with a progression of good, hard hikes. The oft-mentioned Bear Flat trail to Baldy is a good start. I like the feeling of that being routine -- then I know I'm getting ready for real fun -- like adding half a dozen or more peaks to that route and extending it by a score of miles or so.

The older one gets, the more one needs to learn to back way off when body parts malfunction -- I'm thinking mainly of feet, ankles, knees, legs and hips here. Other body parts can be covered on other message boards.

There were some good comments about food and nourishment earlier. I may add some thoughts later on. Make sure you are not short of water. I am getting more and more Rick Kent-like, but I am still a Sparkletts truck compared to him. Carrying lots of water means lots of weight, which slows one down, but too little water can cause big time problems. We can't all be Rick Kent. Take more than enough until you learn what you can get away with.

My son got mentioned at one point. He is 19, doesn't have an extra pound on his body, and is a college distance runner. The only thing one can learn form him is how easy it all looks. None of us are ever going to see 19 again! But he is a great hiking partner. There is no one I'd rather go with on a 40 mile day hike up Mt. Whitney.