EISPIRATEN

Posted: **Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:56 am**

mattmaxon wrote: ↑The question I always ask at the end is "Would you do it again?" The ACA rating seems 4CVI

I would like to test out if going "canyon right" in Taco's watering hole would spit you out instead of making it a keeper. But, that's a whole lotta pain to go through just to test out a hypothesis.

Having just done it, I don't feel the need to go back. Ask me again in a few months and my answer may be different

Posted: **Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:05 am**

mattmaxon wrote: ↑The question I always ask at the end is "Would you do it again?" The ACA rating seems 4CVI

I would add an R to the rating, just for the big falls. If Randy hadn't been able to swim out, we would have had to find a bypass like Zach did. And Zach being such an excellent climber, I don't know if we could have done that.

I would go again. I would first work on the trail from Prairie Fork to Cabin Flat, which is the ideal exit. I would take three full days. And I'd keep my pack weight under 25 lbs including rope. (HYOH, but that's what I'd do...)

Posted: **Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:46 pm**

Matt, thanks for the input on the grade. Here is my page for the route:

http://www.summitpost.org/fish-fork-of- ... -vi/660137

I have edited the page since we last visited the canyon, and have changed the grade to 4C VI R.

Posted: **Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:58 pm**

Classic SG route and excellent pics.

I disagree on the classification, but I dont think Ive agreed with Matt yet 8) 4CR is one rating short of the hardest canyons in the entire world...at this rating, its harder than Heaps or Imlay...but it does keep in line with SG canyons being rated way higher than they should be.

Posted: **Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:37 pm**

R rating? lol,Isnt the old motto "Canyoneering is the fat mans sport".

Get on a true R route,and youll realize there is no room for error.

Great pics,and fish fork is a beautiful canyon.Just dont go hyping it up,like majority of the overinflated grades in the san gabs.

Posted: **Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:52 pm**

R Risky
One or more extraordinary risk factors exist that could complicate the descent.
Solid technical skills and sound judgment critical. Not recommended for
beginners.

Posted: **Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:22 pm**

Johnny,

I nearly died in there last year. Do you understand how what you said makes me feel?

Posted: **Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:56 pm**

Its nothing personal brotha.Why didn't you rate it differently the first time around? You did fine this time around with no issues and totally safe(you even flipped the waterfall off,as if it did something to you lol),no one had any mishaps and you all came out fine.But the rating gets inflated because someone isnt comfortable with their skill set in certain conditions?The mountains dont tailor to everyone,and that doesnt mean it needs such a dangerous rating.You know that.When someone gets into a dangerous position,99% of the time,its their lack of skill to adapt,not the actual route.You knew what you were getting into it when going into the canyon this time around,and you you were fine and had a blast just like everyone else(hell i would have liked to come lol)But dont get it twisted.

.....Think about what you are saying and what im conveying.People have almost died or have died in all sorts of situations in the mountains,beach,any natural activity.That doesnt warrant such harsh ratings.If there is a consensus ,then of course its different.That is not the case.You know the calculated risks are involved regardless of the grade,canyoneering,mountaineering,climbing anything.Slapping an R rating because of ones lack of skill to adapt on a route doesnt justify it my friend.

I simply had the same thoughts as AW and dont agree on the grade.

Like AW put it,its an awesome classic route for the san gabs,the grade lives up to the hype in the san gabs.
Rating it is right under some of the hardest/dangerous canyons is a bit much.

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:21 am**

I personally believe the R rating is deserved. I have left the rating open for experienced canyoneers to judge. This trip was comprised primarily of experienced canyoneers who have done far more canyoneering than I.

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:03 am**

If anyone really wants to nerd-out over ratings, here is the complete ACA rating system. It does change, and has been changed in the past year, most likely resulting in some confusion. I've highlighted in red the parts that apply to Fish Fork canyon. Obviously someone slipping in the bathtub does not make said bathtub a 3CIVX, but I think the specific wording in the rating system is objective.

(AW - I haven't done Heaps or Imlay, so I can't directly compare, and this post is not specifically aimed at you)

I hope others will take our description of the canyon seriously as it would be a huge weight on my conscience if anyone got hurt or killed because I presented it as a fun thing to do on a weekend if you have some rope. Our group getting through this canyon without injury should not imply that anyone found it "easy" in any way.

Many people on this board climb Baldy in winter, and have a swell time with little risk to themselves. That doesn't make winter mountaineering on Baldy "easy", it makes those people very good at what they do. I wouldn't make it to the Ski Hut without stabbing myself with an ice axe, so I stick to what I know.

The basic format of the ACA Canyon Rating System includes two digits. The ﬁrst digit is numeric and represents the values described below related to terrain and rope work. The second digit is an alpha character representing the values described below related to water volume and current. Additional values may be added to represent relative risk and time/commitment. Ratings are cumulative. For example: descending a Class 3 canyon will require the skills listed under Class 3, as well as those listed under Classes 1 and 2.

NOTE: Ratings refer to descents in normal conditions, during what is considered the normal season for the canyon. Adverse conditions, such as higher than normal water volume or colder temperatures, will increase the difﬁculty of the descent.

TERRAIN / TECHNICAL ROPE WORK

1 Canyon Hiking

Non-technical; no rope required. May involve some easy scrambling requiring the occasional use of hands for balance and support. Travel is possible up or down canyon. See route description for more information.

2 Basic Canyoneering

Scrambling, easy vertical or near vertical climbing and/or down-climbing
requiring frequent use of hands. Rope recommended for hand lines, belays,
lowering packs and possible emergency use. Travel is possible up or down
canyon. See route description for more information.

3 Intermediate Canyoneering

Exposed technical climbing. Down-climbing could be difﬁcult and dangerous;
most people will rappel. Rope required for belays and single-pitch rappels.
Obvious natural or ﬁxed anchors. Retreat up canyon will require ascending
ﬁxed ropes. Basic pothole escape techniques (i.e. partner assist, counter-
weights) may also be required. See route description for more information.

4 Advanced-Expert Canyoneering

Route may involve any combination of the following: 1) difﬁcult and exposed free climbing and/or down-climbing, 2) climbing using direct aid, 3) multi-pitch rappels, 4) complex rope work (i.e. guided rappels, deviations, rebelays), 5) obscure or indistinct natural anchors, 6) advanced problem-solving and
anchor-building skills. See route description for more information.

WATER VOLUME / CURRENT

A Normally dry or very little water. Dry falls. Water, if present, can be avoided and/or is very shallow. Shoes may get wet, but no wetsuit or drysuit required.

B Normally has water with no current or very light current. Still pools. Falls
normally dry or running at a trickle. Expect to do some deep wading and/or
swimming. Wetsuit or drysuit may be required depending on water and air
temperatures.

C Normally has water with current. Waterfalls. Expect to do some deep wading and/or swimming in current. Wetsuit or drysuit may be required depending on water and air temperatures.

Class C canyons may be rated more precisely
using the following system:

C1 - Normally has water with light to moderate current. Easy water hazards.
C2 - Normally has water with strong current. Water hazards like hydraulics and siphons require advanced skills and special care.
C3 - Normally has water with very strong current. Dangerous water hazards. Experts only.
C4 - Extreme problems and hazards will be difﬁcult to overcome, even for
experienced experts with strong swimming skills.

NOTE: Water level in any canyon can ﬂuctuate greatly from year-to-year, season-to- season, even day-to-day. If, upon arrival at a canyon, you discover the water volume/ current is greater than indicated by the rating, descent will be more difﬁcult than suggested by the route description. It will be necessary to reevaluate your decision to attempt the descent.

RISK / SERIOUSNESS (OPTIONAL)

G General Audiences
Should be straight-forward for those who possess appropriate skills.

PG Parental Guidance Suggested
Even with appropriate skills, beginners may sweat.

R Risky
One or more extraordinary risk factors exist that could complicate the descent. Solid technical skills and sound judgment critical. Not recommended for beginners.

X Extreme
Multiple risk factors exist that will complicate the descent. Errors in technique or judgment will likely result in serious injury or death. Descent should only be attempted by expert canyoneers.

XX Double Extreme
Deﬁnitely life-threatening.

NOTE: The presence of a risk/seriousness rating suggests that the canyon will involve higher than average risk. The absence or a risk/seriousness rating does not suggest that there will be no risk. All canyoneering involves risk. Risk factors include number and frequency of rappels, length of rappels (single- or double-rope) and exposure, anchor availability, anchor quality, route ﬁnding, obstacles, problem-solving, terrain encountered between technical sections, ﬂash ﬂood potential, availability of exits and high ground, water temperature, prolonged immersion, and difﬁculty of evacuation or rescue. Speciﬁc factors should be addressed in the route description.

TIME / COMMITMENT (OPTIONAL)

Half Day

I Short. Normally requires only a couple of hours.

II Normally requires a half day.

III Normally requires most of a day.

IV Expected to take one long, full day. Get an early start. Bring a head lamp. Plan for possible bivy.

V Expected to take an average one and a half days.

VI Expected to take two or more days.

NOTE: Time estimates are based on average group of 6 people or less. Larger groups and less experienced groups will take longer. An accurate self-assessment of your abilities will be important. For some users, it may be adequate to refer to time in terms of half day, full day or multi day. Others may prefer a more speciﬁc estimate and choose to use the Roman Numeral Grade system common in traditional multi-pitch
rock climbing.

EXAMPLES
In conversations, you will often hear canyoneers refer to portions of a canyon’s complete rating. For example; they may simply refer to a canyon as Class 2 (referring to the terrain), as Class B (referring to the water), or as Grade IV (referring to the time required). In guidebooks and web sites, you should ﬁnd complete ratings.

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:53 am**

Hi-five!

Are we going to pull 'em out and measure next?!?!

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:21 am**

Burchey wrote: ↑Hi-five!

Are we going to pull 'em out and measure next?!?!

Pretty sure I would lose that competition.

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:09 am**

cougarmagic wrote: ↑
Burchey wrote: ↑Hi-five!

Are we going to pull 'em out and measure next?!?!
Pretty sure I would lose that competition.

You and I would tie for last. Yeah!

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:11 am**

The water did look very cold.

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:40 am**

Too funny!

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:08 pm**

Maybe just get rid of the ratings then...."R" is supposed to be for extra-ordinary...keyworkd:extra. It tells me that if I descend Kolob, but fail to take into account the waterflow is controlled by an unpredictable dam release, then I'll meet the "R" face to face....no matter how much Kolob seems like nothing hard...or if I go to Choprock when its full, I probably have to fool with unstable logjams.

Class 4 is not a case of you can be lucky....its you have to know those skills. I cant retreat upcanyon in a class 3 canyon....so class 4 is not only do I have to have a rope, I have to use it in a certain way. Cibecue is class 3....even though a guided rappel is typically the way down. As I understand it, a class 4('guided rappel') means the only way down(even for the first person) is a guided rappel...and thats a tough standard to meet here in SoCal. Setting up a guided rappel introduces more to be concerned about...saying its mandatory conjures up yellowstone or niagara falls.

I know what you are saying about the dangers, but canyon ratings dont address those...and they really cant. North Dome Gully is class 2AR.(IMO its 2AX)....but just saying the "R" refers to precise navigation required is like a ridiculous understatement.

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:09 pm**

Nice work & beautiful images! FF is a gem to be sure.

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:10 pm**

I rate this trip as AWS (Awesome, With Stove).

HJ

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:37 pm**

Updated. Take a look: http://www.summitpost.org/fish-fork-of- ... iel/660137

I removed the numerical/numbers-and-letters rating in trade for my own explanation of the route's difficulties.

I am incredibly done with this.

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:17 pm**

Good points. I would agree a downgrade to a 3 makes sense.

I'm not budging on the R though. It's a shame it's only about one specific part of a very long, otherwise normal canyon, but that pool & current is unlike anything I've experienced in the San Gabriels, so it is extraordinary for this area.

And yes, I'm even sick of myself talking about it now, so let's move on to other people's cool trips!

AW, your helmet sticker is awesome.

Posted: **Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:59 pm**

cougarmagic wrote: ↑AW, your helmet sticker is awesome.

Hehehe...thats one of the reasons I posted the picture....but its not my picture nor me or a group I was with. I retreated out of necessity and had to return via Yosemite Falls trail.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:14 pm**

AW wrote: ↑Classic SG route and excellent pics.

I disagree on the classification, but I dont think Ive agreed with Matt yet 8) 4CR is one rating short of the hardest canyons in the entire world...at this rating, its harder than Heaps or Imlay...but it does keep in line with SG canyons being rated way higher than they should be.

The pictures do not do the large falls justice. When I went down first I could not touch the bottom (I'm 6'5") and I was being pulled into the waterfall. If you went with a group that did not have a strong swimmer you'd have to bypass the falls and prolong your trip.

Whether or not the canyon deserves an R rating is up for debate as it's definitely not on the level as some Washington or Hawaii Canyons. It is still a very dangerous canyon due to the single hydraulic. As in rock climbing and other sports, the rating is a starting point to give you a point of reference. It's up to the people going in to do the research and hopefully read these trip reports.

Everyone who went on the trip had some unique training or expertise to add to the trip. We brought my gf Anouk along and this was her first ever canyon and she did fine. She is a strong swimmer and had no trouble with the three days other than her pack weight which was water logged. In this respect I don't think the rating should be "R" as a newbie canyoneer could go through her first canyon and it was with running water to boot!

The analogy I would use for the rating would be simialr to climbing. It is an easy route with the crux move being the hydraulic at the large falls.

-Randy

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:42 pm**

Randy88fj62 wrote: ↑ It is an easy route with the crux move being the hydraulic at the large falls.

-Randy

Your face is an easy route with a hydraulic crux move!!!11!11!!!!

OH yeah!!! GOt 'im!! You did not expect that BURN.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:49 pm**

Burchey wrote: ↑
Randy88fj62 wrote: ↑ It is an easy route with the crux move being the hydraulic at the large falls.

-Randy
Your face is an easy route with a hydraulic crux move!!!11!11!!!!

OH yeah!!! GOt 'im!! You did not expect that BURN.

Good thing we've got Burchey on the forum. Helps out with the technical explanations a lot around here.

HJ

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:27 pm**

Great TR. Interesting reading and definitely a trip on the list....

The R component of the rating possibly being a bit of a stretch is certainly worth discussing. Ratings should always be treated with a bit of caution until you have a good feel for those setting the ratings in an area and/or an idea as to how a local rating may translate against your particular frame of reference.

Another factor that I've encountered occasionally across a range of outdoor pursuits has to deal with leading vs. following.

Someone has an "extensive" resume of climbs or descents and tackles a route that would seem to be well within their ability given their experience. Turns out the individual is rock solid at following 5.11 (or whatever), but can't lead it.

Being a follower in a class 4 canyon is very different from being the decision maker/leader, rigger, etc. in that same canyon.

It is very good practice to have a high level of confidence in the ability of one's partners. Particularly if things go to h3ll and the leader can't lead.

Most people are pretty good at recognizing when they may be pushing their boundaries, but you still find some (usually males....) figuring they can tackle some difficult climb/canyon/backcountry ski descent/river, etc. 'cause they went on a whole bunch of guided trips or can ski any run at Mammoth.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:45 pm**

Burchey wrote: ↑
Randy88fj62 wrote: ↑ It is an easy route with the crux move being the hydraulic at the large falls.

-Randy
Your face is an easy route with a hydraulic crux move!!!11!11!!!!

OH yeah!!! GOt 'im!! You did not expect that BURN.

Hey Adam, your mom goes to college.

Proven unrecoverable burn.

Posted: **Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:56 am**

Hikin_Jim wrote: ↑ Good thing we've got Burchey on the forum. Helps out with the technical explanations a lot around here.

HJ

Thanks for the recognition Jim. The whole reason I do the climbing trips and then post the reports is so I have an excuse to be on here and post pictures of Trogdor.

Dave G wrote: ↑ Hey Adam, your mom goes to college.
Proven unrecoverable burn.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you got me!!!!!111!1

Nicely done on the Napoleon quote, Dave. I'm impressed. One of my all time favorite movies, although I would have liked it more if it had an R rating. We need to get out and about again, any ideas? PM a brother if so.

Posted: **Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:19 am**

Randy88fj62 wrote: ↑ The pictures do not do the large falls justice. When I went down first I could not touch the bottom (I'm 6'5") and I was being pulled into the waterfall. If you went with a group that did not have a strong swimmer you'd have to bypass the falls and prolong your trip.
-Randy

Nothing a canyoneering technique wouldnt solve even if someone went solo and wasnt a strong swimmer.
http://www.canyonwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Canyon_rappel
Or could likely use an inflatable pool raft or swimming fins, depending on fitness.

Posted: **Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:40 am**

Canyoneering water wings!

HJ

Posted: **Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:41 am**

AW wrote: ↑ Or could likely use an inflatable pool raft or swimming fins, depending on fitness.

Yeah, or why didn't you use one of these?

Problem solved. Idiots.

EISPIRATEN

Fish Fork canyon June 24 - June 26 2011

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