This has been a random thought on my mind for a bit.
When people think about hiking, they usually think in terms of physical endurance. Rightly so. It is a physical activity, walking with whatever degree of distance and gain. I haven't turned back many times due to physical endurance, although it has happened. Usually, it's if I didn't have enough calories and bonked. Pretty straightforward equation of calories in/calories out. I've also avoided endurance fails by choosing goals that mostly seem possible. For example, I haven't attempted Triplet Rocks in part because of my concern for the physical endurance required.
The mental endurance concept has to do with novel problems or near misses that consume brain energy. The waking brain is powered by a handful of neurotransmitters: Acetylcholine (alertness), Norepinephrine (fight or flight), Dopamine (motivation), Serotonin, Histamine, Orexin (wakefulness). When you experience a near miss like an averted fall, slips, close call with a rattlesnake, falling rocks, avalanches, crevasses, it causes a surge in chemical usage, especially Norepinephrine. Others are used to regulate the excitement. The other thing that consumes extra brain energy is solving an unexpected puzzle. How do I get up this rock face? How do I get around the obstacle? How do I find a route through this brush? It's different than an adrenaline spike, but consumes chemicals. All these chemicals get refreshed with restful sleep, so it doesn't help when you get up in the middle of the night to start a long hike. You might be setting out with less than full tank of brain juice.
When you run low on these chemicals, your decision making gets worse, your motivation wanes, you get complacent. Unconsciously, I am always doing real time calculus in my head about the way a hike is evolving. If I get a feeling things are going sideways, it's probably because I'm running low on brain chems.
The reason I started thinking about this was a hike I turned back on in April: Palo Verde Peak (https://ironhiker.blogspot.com/2024/04/ ... tempt.html). It's a small desert peak near Blythe, CA. It has a short approach from the east, only a couple of miles. I stepped directly over a rattlesnake in the approach gully. It was early morning in the shade and it blended into the rocks. I was also not thinking about snakes so early. I instinctively jumped, but it seemed like I was moving in slow motion. It could easily have tagged me, but didn't. It rattled after I was already away. I got to the top of the ridge and had to find a class 3 route to cross the saddle. Problem solved. On the other side, I could not see the route up, but found a couple of helpful cairns that got me to the top of the next ridge. Then, I faced what looked like a class 5 crumbly cliff, but was able to scramble up right of the cliff. Then, I could see the summit, maybe 500' away on the other side of a knife edge. I sat there and looked at it, considered the rock quality, wondered what the end of the knife edge was like, and backed down.
I've thought about that scenario a lot since then and I feel confident I could go back and summit. I've solved all the problems but the last one, and I don't think I'd meet a snake again. I think I ran out of brain chemicals, and could not muster the will to solve the final problem. I had plenty of physical energy left, plenty of food and water, plenty of time, perfect weather.
Maybe this can all be boiled down to "grit", what do you think?
Mental endurance in hiking
Mental endurance is certainly a thing, but it can be addressed in the same manner as physical endurance: with training. In this case it sounds like maybe you forgot to simply try the knife edge until real danger presented itself. Know your risk tolerance and move forward until you reach a spot you truly can't handle or tolerate. You were wondering about the end of the knife edge, but did you try the beginning? Don't let the unknown stop you from overcoming the known. Move forward when possible.tekewin wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 11:49 amThen, I could see the summit, maybe 500' away on the other side of a knife edge. I sat there and looked at it, considered the rock quality, wondered what the end of the knife edge was like, and backed down.
I've thought about that scenario a lot since then and I feel confident I could go back and summit. I've solved all the problems but the last one, and I don't think I'd meet a snake again. I think I ran out of brain chemicals, and could not muster the will to solve the final problem. I had plenty of physical energy left, plenty of food and water, plenty of time, perfect weather.
Maybe this can all be boiled down to "grit", what do you think?
Also, if you suspect mental fatigue, eat and drink something healthy, and rest a bit. Your brain might need some nutrients to refocus and think more clearly. Remember, dehydration is a killer, because it prevents you from thinking clearly and you make mistakes. It's important to stay fed and watered.
I got about 6' from the start. I was hydrated and had physical energy. It wasn't just the knife edge, but I knew there was a downclimb on the other side I couldn't see. In the end, it was the unknown that was the last straw, but only after overcoming the prior unknowns. That's why I think with only two new puzzles to solve, it would not be an issue on the second try. I think the snake also affected my state of mind more than I realized at the time.Sean wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 1:05 pm Mental endurance is certainly a thing, but it can be addressed in the same manner as physical endurance: with training. In this case it sounds like maybe you forgot to simply try the knife edge until real danger presented itself. Know your risk tolerance and move forward until you reach a spot you truly can't handle or tolerate. You were wondering about the end of the knife edge, but did you try the beginning? Don't let the unknown stop you from overcoming the known. Move forward when possible.
What turns us around on a hike? Its a great question.
I will bet the fact you were alone for Palo Verde contributed as well, too. At least I know it would for me.
Thinking back on recent times I've turned around on a hike and not completed the planned route...
Alder Crag attempt... https://eispiraten.com/viewtopic.php?t=9067
Matt and I got super swamped by chamise, and decided to turn around. I guess this was partially mental endurance, as our tolerance for thick brush was being tested. But a major part of it was the purpose of the mission at hand - to find a viable route to Alder Crag, and this ocean of chamise was proving itself to be an unviable route, wether or not it *could* actually be crossed. So with Sean waiting for us already, we decided to bail and try a different approach next time in hopes of finding a better route. So it wasn't just about reaching the crag - it was also about reaching the crag via a route of reasonable difficulty, and this one simply had become too difficult to fit the criteria.
Itseeteeze https://eispiraten.com/viewtopic.php?t=8946&start=30
The Devil's Canyon trail I was a planning on following was almost completely wiped out by flooding, so the bushwhacking and debris everywhere maxed out the tolerance of my wife and we turned around without completing the loop I had planned. Certainly I was far from my own limit, but that wasn't the case for my wife and 3-year-old son.
In April I was hiking in the San Pitch mountains of central Utah with my father when the snow got deeper and deeper the further up in elevation we climbed, the post-holing greatly slowing our pace. We realized there was not enough daylight remaining to the complete our planned loop at the pace the snow was forcing us to hike at, so we turned around after a couple miles. We had already done a big hike earlier that day on the Wasatch Plateau, so there was some fatigue involved, at least enough that made us realize we weren't going to complete the loop before nightfall. But I know if it was earlier in the day we would have kept going if we knew there would be enough daylight. So it was a question of safety...
Oat Mountain via Rice Canyon
https://eispiraten.com/viewtopic.php?t=9015
Physical and mental stamina seemed pretty good leading up to our turnaround point - but this one little stretch of the ridge narrowed to a knife edge and looked sketchy as hell, and no one felt like it was a safe decision to try to cross it. If you are feeling fine but then walk upon a sketchy narrow ridge that appears too dangerous to cross, is that a failure of mental stamina? I supposed we could have tried to find a bypass, but honestly the options were crazy limited. Both sides were an impassable drop-off. We would have had to add a lot of uncertain miles to the route finding some kind of detour down into the canyon and back up again. So I *guess* it was a failure of mental stamina? What does anyone else on that trip think it was a failure of that lead us to turn around and not make it to the summit of Oat Mountain?
what I'm finding here is the mental and physical are very interrelated, primarily the physical having an effect on the mental. (This former canyon trail is now a debris field, so the physical difficulty I have to walking through it has sapped me of mental motivation)
I will bet the fact you were alone for Palo Verde contributed as well, too. At least I know it would for me.
Thinking back on recent times I've turned around on a hike and not completed the planned route...
Alder Crag attempt... https://eispiraten.com/viewtopic.php?t=9067
Matt and I got super swamped by chamise, and decided to turn around. I guess this was partially mental endurance, as our tolerance for thick brush was being tested. But a major part of it was the purpose of the mission at hand - to find a viable route to Alder Crag, and this ocean of chamise was proving itself to be an unviable route, wether or not it *could* actually be crossed. So with Sean waiting for us already, we decided to bail and try a different approach next time in hopes of finding a better route. So it wasn't just about reaching the crag - it was also about reaching the crag via a route of reasonable difficulty, and this one simply had become too difficult to fit the criteria.
Itseeteeze https://eispiraten.com/viewtopic.php?t=8946&start=30
The Devil's Canyon trail I was a planning on following was almost completely wiped out by flooding, so the bushwhacking and debris everywhere maxed out the tolerance of my wife and we turned around without completing the loop I had planned. Certainly I was far from my own limit, but that wasn't the case for my wife and 3-year-old son.
In April I was hiking in the San Pitch mountains of central Utah with my father when the snow got deeper and deeper the further up in elevation we climbed, the post-holing greatly slowing our pace. We realized there was not enough daylight remaining to the complete our planned loop at the pace the snow was forcing us to hike at, so we turned around after a couple miles. We had already done a big hike earlier that day on the Wasatch Plateau, so there was some fatigue involved, at least enough that made us realize we weren't going to complete the loop before nightfall. But I know if it was earlier in the day we would have kept going if we knew there would be enough daylight. So it was a question of safety...
Oat Mountain via Rice Canyon
https://eispiraten.com/viewtopic.php?t=9015
Physical and mental stamina seemed pretty good leading up to our turnaround point - but this one little stretch of the ridge narrowed to a knife edge and looked sketchy as hell, and no one felt like it was a safe decision to try to cross it. If you are feeling fine but then walk upon a sketchy narrow ridge that appears too dangerous to cross, is that a failure of mental stamina? I supposed we could have tried to find a bypass, but honestly the options were crazy limited. Both sides were an impassable drop-off. We would have had to add a lot of uncertain miles to the route finding some kind of detour down into the canyon and back up again. So I *guess* it was a failure of mental stamina? What does anyone else on that trip think it was a failure of that lead us to turn around and not make it to the summit of Oat Mountain?
what I'm finding here is the mental and physical are very interrelated, primarily the physical having an effect on the mental. (This former canyon trail is now a debris field, so the physical difficulty I have to walking through it has sapped me of mental motivation)
Yeah, going solo puts all the mental strain on yourself. Turning around was probably the best decision if you sensed a lack of concentration. I'm a mental zombie by 6pm, and that's without soloing a knife ridge.
Re: Oat Mtn
I think we hit our risk tolerance. At least I did. The knife edge was too steep with potentially lethal falls, and the existing rope was very brittle, unsafe. With a new rope, proper setup and harness, one of us would have led the downclimb, I'm sure, even if it meant splitting up.
I think we hit our risk tolerance. At least I did. The knife edge was too steep with potentially lethal falls, and the existing rope was very brittle, unsafe. With a new rope, proper setup and harness, one of us would have led the downclimb, I'm sure, even if it meant splitting up.
No question having a partner or a team creates synergy. If one person doesn't see a way forward, maybe another one does. Or, like when we Black Jack Peak and several people took turn on point cutting brush. Too big a job for a single person, but doable with a group. Strength in numbers.Nate U wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 3:57 pm I will bet the fact you were alone for Palo Verde contributed as well, too. At least I know it would for me.
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what I'm finding here is the mental and physical are very interrelated, primarily the physical having an effect on the mental. (This former canyon trail is now a debris field, so the physical difficulty I have to walking through it has sapped me of mental motivation)
Turning back for safety is always a good idea whether solo or as group. Safety first. I agree the mental and physical are very interrelated. In my particular case, in hindsight, I think it was safe enough, but at the time, I was too mentally tired to do it.
Yeah, that ridge on the east side of Towsley Canyon was a risk tolerance situation moreso than endurance of some kind. I don't think it mattered what physical or mental gas we may have had in our tanks - if we had come across that ridge 100 feet from the trailhead, I think we still would have turned around.Sean wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 4:27 pm Re: Oat Mtn
I think we hit our risk tolerance. At least I did. The knife edge was too steep with potentially lethal falls, and the existing rope was very brittle, unsafe. With a new rope, proper setup and harness, one of us would have led the downclimb, I'm sure, even if it meant splitting up.
The more I think about it, it is a potentially dangerous trap to believe turning around is always the result of some kind of depletion on the part of our physical or mental endurance. Ultimately the terrain and circumstances call the shots out there...we have little control and can only react with safe judgement. But for sure *how* we react can be influenced by our physical/mental gas in the tank.
Group dynamics in serious hiking are somewhat new to me, and they are kind of fascinating. I think it works both ways - having more people involved make it safer because if things go south for someone, you have others to help. That can give confidence and changes the risk tolerance. Not to mention the encouragement or even peer pressure to push your comfort zone.tekewin wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 4:32 pm No question having a partner or a team creates synergy. If one person doesn't see a way forward, maybe another one does. Or, like when we Black Jack Peak and several people took turn on point cutting brush. Too big a job for a single person, but doable with a group. Strength in numbers.
However, you also have more points of potential failure. You have 12 potential sprained ankles instead of 2. 6 potential heat stroke victims instead of 1. If the group is sticking together, you only have as much physical/mental endurance as your weakest member.
Mental endurance is a very real thing. I used to ride many century bike rides, both 100 miles and metric 100k rides. Before attempting my first 100 mile ride another member of my local bicycle club cautioned me not to watch the mileage on my speedometer as most century rides could never be exactly 100 miles long. He pointed out nothing is more crushing than seeing the mileage click over to 100 with the finish line nowhere to be seen. Physiologically when you see 100 miles your body shuts down and expects rest but you might be more than a mile from the finish line, his advice was excellent.
Malia, a canyoneer, would say that group dynamics by default - humans are the most dangerous.
I definitely concur...We just had that Tish woman last year was discarded with a waiver/disclaimer on the LA meetup...scrubbed from their website.
And this year, Diem Le Nguyen of San Diego ...and 10 to 1 the 'leader' dismissed it the same way. 'Sucks to be her'.
I whipped out my gopro camera to take a video aka 'influencer '...that was a total joke, in case someone saw me.
Years back, some guy filmed "if this is the last video I ever record'...that caused a stir in canyoneering. I went there shortly and barely got a permit..and it was nonsense...the group of guys was dramatico bozos.