Looking for information regarding 1978 debris flow.

MarkM · Post by **MarkM** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:11 pm

I just found your informative site and have not had a chance to read all of the content here but hopefully someone who reads this can help me in obtaining some historical information.

I lived for a number of years in Angeles National Forest, next to Mill Creek and was there for the 1977 fire and the subsequent flash flood in 1978 that claimed 12 lives. I am currently writing down some of my memories of the incident, trying to get the details as true as possible. It's a sad story but illustrates the dangers of mountain living.

Link for some history: http://www.explorehistoricalif.com/floods3.html

My trouble is that the event was over thirty years ago and my memory is fuzzy regarding many of the names. Some remains (skulls and bones) were found and identified when the city of Los Angeles dredged the Big Tujunga Reservoir, I believe sometime in the mid to late 80's. The people lost in the massive flow came from the tiny town of Hidden Springs (population around twenty at the time). What is left of the town is just below USFS Station 18 (Mill Creek) which has a Palmdale address, but the dam containing their remains is in LA County. I know one of the men who died was a USFS ranger and I was friends with his teenaged son and daughter, but we lost contact after the tragedy.

My question is- Does anyone know what public records I should search to gather the names of the flood victims in this area, and if such details are even recorded? I am not a journalists and my searching so far has revealed little.

Thanks in advance.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:24 pm

Detailed information would be from Police Reports from the Sheriff's dept

Your best bet would be newspaper archives at least as a place to start

Most public libraries have good newspaper online databases

Some of the lesser known newspapers might only be available in microfiche in some local libraries

newspaperarchive.com would have it but that costs $$$

MarkM · Post by **MarkM** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:40 pm

mattmaxon wrote: ↑Detailed information would be from Police Reports from the Sheriff's dept

Your best bet would be newspaper archives at least as a place to start

Most public libraries have good newspaper online databases

Some of the lesser known newspapers might only be available in microfiche in some local libraries

newspaperarchive.com would have it but that costs $$$

I did search some of the local newspapers and got a couple of articles from the time, but most of it I already know. The main issue I am having is getting the names, like the ranger and land owner (Gabe something), which are in none of the newspaper reports I have located.

I think you are correct in that the police reports will be my best bet. I was hoping for an easier answer and I am not sure which reports to check (Palmdale or LA). I suppose I should start with LA since it is the closest county and has the most police, but I sort of dread having to wade into that mess.

Thanks again.

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:49 pm

I have a friend who lives in the canyon now, and is interested in the history. I'll ask about this and get back to you if there is anything that will help.

janefontana · Post by **janefontana** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:37 am

Hi. I'm the one cougarmagic mentioned. It's so great you are committed to keeping track of this history.
Oddly enough, I was just up at Hidden Springs yesterday. Beautiful country! Mill Creek is so gorgeous.
Bolton Hall in Tujunga most likely has all the information on the 1978 flood.
http://www.laparks.org/dos/historic/bolton.htm
It's best to make an appointment and take the time to look through the documents you'd like to view.
I did this after the Station Fire and actually saw quite a bit on that particular flood.
Also, I have met Elba (Elva?) Lewis a few times. She and her husband own the cafe (now burned) there. Last year she told me about her personal flood experience. She witnessed the ranger being swept away! I will try to contact her and ask her if I can send you her info.
I also know Barbara Webb from Singing Springs.
Do either of these names ring a bell?
Another thought, if you would, could you donate your record of your memories to Bolton Hall? It would make this great resource even better.
Please let me know if I can help in any way.
Thanks for doing this.

janefontana · Post by **janefontana** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:46 am

Oh, Mark M, you're in San Francisco. I didn't realize. Do you come down here much? Let me know if you need my help researching.

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:14 am

You might try the LA County Flood Control District.

http://dpw.lacounty.gov/wmd/dspFloodControlDist.cfm

They track runoff and keep storm reports.

atomicoyote · Post by **atomicoyote** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:44 am

Longshot suggestion here, but you might also try contacting the Palmdale City Clerk and the L.A. County City Clerk offices. While most clerk's offices focus on records of City/County government activities, some also keep historical archives (news clippings, pamphelts, promo items from special events, etc); they may not display it on their websites, so you'll have to call/email them to see if they happen to have any historical stuff.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:01 am

MarkM wrote: ↑ I am not sure which reports to check

Cresenta Valley Station handles most of the San Gabriel Mountains.

But I doubt they keep archives there. Likely it would be in the Records & Identification Bureau

What are the dates roughly for these events?

MarkM · Post by **MarkM** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:03 am

OK wow lots of great information here. Thank you so much everyone.

Yes I knew Elva and Amos and their children, Jimmy, Raymond, Otis et. al. my sister Dawn stays in Facebook contact with one or two of Elva's grandchildren. I am at work right now but I will pass my memories of the event here, or where appropriate (likely Bolton Hall), after I get off work and have time to look over the posted links.

Last time I visited Hidden Springs was after the massive 2011 fire that burned the Lutheran church camp to the ground. My friend and I got through the police barricade with his press pass. The fires were still smoldering and nobody was around.

Edit: I will pm you janefontana the next time I travel to LA (probably end of July this year)

mattmaxon wrote: ↑
What are the dates roughly for these events?

The debris event was early morning February 10th 1978. The only reason the ranger was there was to help with an electrical fire.

I have a rough idea of when his remains were possibly found, in the Tujunga canyon reservoir and it was close to a decade later after the '78 flood during dredging procedures.

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:37 am

Post by **Uncle Rico** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:10 am

Damn matt and cougar. Well done!

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:37 am

La Times April 27 1979

PackerGreg · Post by **PackerGreg** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:47 am

(photo: Historical Society of the Crescenta Valley)

"In July, 1977, a forest fire denuded the hills upstream from Lutherglen, destroying approximately 3,860 acres of the watershed area and creating a serious flood hazard. Such flooding occurred on February 9 and 10, 1978, when a storm dropped 11 inches of rain in the watershed. The runoff from the storm overflowed the banks of the Mill Creek, flooding Lutherglen and destroying its buildings."
Cornell University Law School - First English Evangelical Lutheran Church of Glendale v. County of Los Angeles, California

Report on the Southern California Floods, Flash Floods and Mud Slides of February 8-10, 1978
NOAA (National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration) [PDF link]

debrtwo · Post by **debrtwo** » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:59 pm

Hidden Springs holds a lot of memories with my family. Spent many of times there back in the day. My father, James Roberts Jr., survived the flood that pretty much wipe out Hidden Springs. He was a resident there living in a cabin. I lived there also in his motor home up on the hill but they would not let me go up the canyon that night because of the mudslides. His story goes, he and his good friend Bill Hodges were hanging in his cabin and keeping an eye on the stream that ran thru Hidden Springs. If the water started to come over towards his cabin they were going to go up to his motor home on higher ground. One time when Bill stepped out to check he looked down and noticed there was a fire in the laundry room. Gabe Hinteberg (the owner) his son Fred and George were already down there. Bill said to my father, I'm going to see if I can help. My father was heading seconds behind him. My father said he heard the freakiest loudest rumbling sound he has ever heard. (And he's been thru Vietnam) He turned around and said a 30 ft. wall of water was coming down. He saw the walk bridge go up in the air breaking into pieces and started running. He got to the chain link fence in front of the pool and grabbed it when the water hit him. He held on as long as he could and got pushed into the empty swimming pool while everything was going over him. It took everything he had to get out of the pool as it was filling with mud. My father heard someone yelling and another friend Victor Smith was buried in mud. Victor was so distraught watching his wife DeeDee and two daughters Amy and Lisa get swept away he tried to drown himself in the mud. A huge boulder stood where my father's cabin was. When we were able to go retrieve the motor home we couldn't believe the devastation that wall of water did going down the canyon. They think this wave started about half a mile upstream where a new county Road Department culvert taking Mill Creek under Angeles Crest Highway washed out and carried everything in it's path. As far as I know they never found a piece of the fire truck which they think Gabe, his son and George jumped in when they saw the water coming. I read somewhere years later that bones were found of two persons in the dam below they thought belonged to Gabe and his son. Never heard anything else about it since then. We lost 10 people that day in Hidden Springs.
Gabe Hinterberg and his 16 yr old son Fred Henteberg
DeeDee Smith, two daughters, Lisa 8 yrs old and Amy 6 yrs old
Jamie Mixon and 1 yr old daughter Bronwyn
Lil Drake
Forest Ranger George Scribner
Bill Hodges

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:13 pm

Another resource might be Mike Lawler in the Historical Society of the Crescenta Valley , he writes a column for the Cresenta Valley Weekly Treasures of the Valley lawlerdad@yahoo.com

hlemonroe · Post by **hlemonroe** » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:38 am

MarkM wrote: I just found your informative site and have not had a chance to read all of the content here but hopefully someone who reads this can help me in obtaining some historical information.

I lived for a number of years in Angeles National Forest, next to Mill Creek and was there for the 1977 fire and the subsequent flash flood in 1978 that claimed 12 lives. I am currently writing down some of my memories of the incident, trying to get the details as true as possible. It's a sad story but illustrates the dangers of mountain living.

Link for some history: http://www.explorehistoricalif.com/floods3.html

My trouble is that the event was over thirty years ago and my memory is fuzzy regarding many of the names. Some remains (skulls and bones) were found and identified when the city of Los Angeles dredged the Big Tujunga Reservoir, I believe sometime in the mid to late 80's. The people lost in the massive flow came from the tiny town of Hidden Springs (population around twenty at the time). What is left of the town is just below USFS Station 18 (Mill Creek) which has a Palmdale address, but the dam containing their remains is in LA County. I know one of the men who died was a USFS ranger and I was friends with his teenaged son and daughter, but we lost contact after the tragedy.

My question is- Does anyone know what public records I should search to gather the names of the flood victims in this area, and if such details are even recorded? I am not a journalists and my searching so far has revealed little.

Thanks in advance.

Hi! I know this is an old thread, but I lived there in 1977 in the old gas station/cabin. I was a baby, but my mom vividly remembers this flood, as we had barely missed it. She said there was a ranger that came around the cafe a lot but she doesn't remember his name. Amos Lewis was a deputy and he had to go to every body found, which was difficult to do. As far as public records, UCR keeps an online searchable newspaper archive that is free to use.

Not much, but I hope it helps.

Heather Monroe

Post by **Sean** » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:22 pm

Hi Heather,

Was the ranger named George Scribner? He's the one who died in the debris flow helping Gabe put out the fire.

kketchum · Post by **kketchum** » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:18 pm

Gabe Hinterberg was my mother's brother. I was only to hidden springs once when I was in High School, the flood happened during my senior year of HS. We lived in WI and didn't have a whole lot of money to go on vacations to far off California.
Some of our extended family worked with Gabe and I thought that people who knew them might like to know how they are.
My grandmother waitressed there, I think she went by Jennie and Peggy. She passed away in 1993 at my parents in Arkansas.
Gabe's wife Mary Ellen is still living. His three daughters are now grandmothers themselves.
His sister Shirley was an investor in hidden springs and I think worked there a bit. Her and her daughters are well.

There was litigation after the flood. It is my understanding that water had been incorrectly directed behind an earthen dam that failed.
I remember that an episode of Baretta was at least partially filmed there and that Gabe and Grandma were extras. I tried unsuccessfully to find the episode.

SemperFidelium · Post by **SemperFidelium** » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:04 pm

debrtwo wrote: ↑Hidden Springs holds a lot of memories with my family. Spent many of times there back in the day. My father, James Roberts Jr., survived the flood that pretty much wipe out Hidden Springs. He was a resident there living in a cabin. I lived there also in his motor home up on the hill but they would not let me go up the canyon that night because of the mudslides. His story goes, he and his good friend Bill Hodges were hanging in his cabin and keeping an eye on the stream that ran thru Hidden Springs. If the water started to come over towards his cabin they were going to go up to his motor home on higher ground. One time when Bill stepped out to check he looked down and noticed there was a fire in the laundry room. Gabe Hinteberg (the owner) his son Fred and George were already down there. Bill said to my father, I'm going to see if I can help. My father was heading seconds behind him. My father said he heard the freakiest loudest rumbling sound he has ever heard. (And he's been thru Vietnam) He turned around and said a 30 ft. wall of water was coming down. He saw the walk bridge go up in the air breaking into pieces and started running. He got to the chain link fence in front of the pool and grabbed it when the water hit him. He held on as long as he could and got pushed into the empty swimming pool while everything was going over him. It took everything he had to get out of the pool as it was filling with mud. My father heard someone yelling and another friend Victor Smith was buried in mud. Victor was so distraught watching his wife DeeDee and two daughters Amy and Lisa get swept away he tried to drown himself in the mud. A huge boulder stood where my father's cabin was. When we were able to go retrieve the motor home we couldn't believe the devastation that wall of water did going down the canyon. They think this wave started about half a mile upstream where a new county Road Department culvert taking Mill Creek under Angeles Crest Highway washed out and carried everything in it's path. As far as I know they never found a piece of the fire truck which they think Gabe, his son and George jumped in when they saw the water coming. I read somewhere years later that bones were found of two persons in the dam below they thought belonged to Gabe and his son. Never heard anything else about it since then. We lost 10 people that day in Hidden Springs.
Gabe Hinterberg and his 16 yr old son Fred Henteberg
DeeDee Smith, two daughters, Lisa 8 yrs old and Amy 6 yrs old
Jamie Mixon and 1 yr old daughter Bronwyn
Lil Drake
Forest Ranger George Scribner
Bill Hodges

rickdfierro@aol.com · Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:32 pm

MarkM wrote: ↑I just found your informative site and have not had a chance to read all of the content here but hopefully someone who reads this can help me in obtaining some historical information.

I lived for a number of years in Angeles National Forest, next to Mill Creek and was there for the 1977 fire and the subsequent flash flood in 1978 that claimed 12 lives. I am currently writing down some of my memories of the incident, trying to get the details as true as possible. It's a sad story but illustrates the dangers of mountain living.

Link for some history: http://www.explorehistoricalif.com/floods3.html

My trouble is that the event was over thirty years ago and my memory is fuzzy regarding many of the names. Some remains (skulls and bones) were found and identified when the city of Los Angeles dredged the Big Tujunga Reservoir, I believe sometime in the mid to late 80's. The people lost in the massive flow came from the tiny town of Hidden Springs (population around twenty at the time). What is left of the town is just below USFS Station 18 (Mill Creek) which has a Palmdale address, but the dam containing their remains is in LA County. I know one of the men who died was a USFS ranger and I was friends with his teenaged son and daughter, but we lost contact after the tragedy.

My question is- Does anyone know what public records I should search to gather the names of the flood victims in this area, and if such details are even recorded? I am not a journalists and my searching so far has revealed little.

Thanks in advance.

When I was a boy of 5 -7 from 1975 - 1977 my father took my little brother up to hidden springs many times. I remember Gabe he thought me how to clean rainbow trout that I would catch in his pond. I have photos I think I even have a photo of Gabe in one of them and I also have a photo of his little dam that we would go swimming in. If you would like I can post the photos I have. But I don't know how. I guess I can upload them to photo bucket and post a link? Let me know. My e-mail address is rickdfierro@aol.com

Post by **Sean** » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:29 am

rickdfierro@aol.com wrote: ↑I have photos I think I even have a photo of Gabe in one of them and I also have a photo of his little dam that we would go swimming in. If you would like I can post the photos I have. But I don't know how.

Hi Rick, thanks for posting. I emailed you about the photos. I can upload them for you, or you could try using the "full editor" posting option and "add files" to your post.

DLawson · Post by **DLawson** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:12 pm

I got married in Hidden Springs in the fall of 1977 - we lived in a camping trailer on the top hill - Lila Martin and Cal Drake were our best friends and convinced us to move up there. I'll never forget the night of the flood. I took Gabe's daughters out on the first helicopter because they trusted me and their mom wouldn't leave not knowing where Gage (I think that was his name) and her son were. Serious thunderstorms still upset me sometimes. I have a couple of pics somewhere from our wedding.