permits, adventure passes

[bcrowell]

About a month ago I tried to buy an America the Beautiful pass on the USGS web site, and they had a message up saying that adventure passes were not being sold and not required because the services that that revenue paid for were not being provided during the covid quarantines. The USGS web site says that's no longer the case, and they're back to normal, so I ordered a pass. I did use a port-a-pottie at the Vivian Creek trailhead last week, so I can verify that they really do seem to be providing the services. Yay, I'm always grateful for a comfy, private poop experience, especially when my usual starbucks option no longer exists.

Anyone have any current info on what's up with national forest permits? For example, I was going to do a self-issue permit for Deer Springs last month, but there was a notice posted at the ranger station in Idyllwild saying that permits were not being issued or checked due to covid. I certainly haven't seen any rangers on the trails since the epidemic started, in either the San Jacintos or the San Bernardinos.

[Sean]

I couldn't find anything about parking passes, but they are issuing free permits for personal firewood.

[CrazyHermit]

The question is, are Adventure Pass fees even legal in the first place. They've been challenged several times in court successfully.

Before 2012 the Forest Service could charge you the Adventure Pass if you parked at a developed site. But this was challenged in court by several hikers who said they weren't using the facilities they were being charged for. They won, and under the new ruling people who want to access trails without using any developed amenities will no longer have to purchase and display an "Adventure Pass" This now applies to the Los Padres, Cleveland, San Bernardino and Angeles National Forests. Areas where they can actually charge you have been greatly reduced.

Here's a list of things the Forest Service claims they can charge you for if you hike in these mountains.

1. Designated developed parking
2. Permanent toilet facility
3. Permanent trash receptacle
4. Interpretive sign, exhibit, or kiosk
5. Picnic tables
6. Security services (meaning regular patrols)

Why should you have to pay to be on land that’s supposed to be owned by the American people? Your taxes already pay for that land. Because of court challenges the following areas have now all dropped their Adventure Pass requirements. Hopefully this illegal fee will be totally abolished EVERYWHERE in the future.

Here's a list of places the Forest Service was forced to provide free trailhead parking areas for in the San Gabriels, aka "alternate parking" near the fee required areas

6000' Day Use Area
Buckhorn Station Day Use Area
Burkhardt Trailhead
Chantry Flats Day Use
Charlton Flat Day Use
Chilao Picnic Area
Colby Bridge Day Use
Delta Flat Day Use
Devil's Canyon Day Use Area
Eagle Roost Day Use Area
East Fork
Gassy Hollow Picnic
Icehouse Trailhead
Indian Canyon Trailhead
Inspiration Point
Islip Saddle Day Use
Jarvi Memorial Day Use
Mill Creek Summit Picnic
Millard Day Use
Mt. Pacifico Trailhead
North Fork Picnic
Oak Springs Picnic
Oak Springs Trailhead
Piru Ponds Day Use
Pony Park Day Use
Red Box Picnic
Skyline Park
Stonyvale Day Use
Switzer's Picnic
Three Points Day Use
Upper Bear Creek
Vincent's Gap
Vogel Flat Day Use
West Fork Trailhead
Wildwood Day Use
Wilson Saddle
Windy Gap (Little Jimmy) Trailhead

Here's the full story of the new agreement if you still have questions ...
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com ... e4eff84830

[AW~]

Good luck with the 'alternate' parking.
I went to the East Fork and parked down by Cattle Canyon(last parking space too lol).
I called the FS, and they said the alternate parking was the hill of East Fork road.
I mentioned that the entire EF road is no parking.
"Oh" & "Cant help you"
Cant advise about the entire EF road being given citations by the San Dimas LA County sheriffs.
Not that this was directed towards Latinos....cant be.
So yeah, while the FS wont give you a citation, LA County might...especially on a holiday when they know theres going to be a big payoff.

[CrazyHermit]

I live at the base of the canyon, so yeah I know, it's a zoo. It's now the official "Sanctuary Canyon" for illegals.

The Forest Service was flooded with a new revenue source when Obama made this a National MONUMENT, but most of the money is being spent on harassing gold prospectors with the new AK-47s they carry. I have photos to prove it. Yep, that's right folks, your Forest Service has become the new para-military branch of big brother government. Oh, and you'll be seeing a lot more of these signs soon, based on an archaic 1872 law.

[bcrowell]

Adventure passes are excellent public policy. They pay for services I want, like having someone clean the bathrooms at the trailhead. They're a wonderful model of how to run government, and we should adopt that model more widely for other services. The model makes sense for a service that (a) is only used by a small percentage of the population who choose it, and (b) can't be provided except by the government or government contractors. (E.g., Starbucks can't respond to demand for clean bathrooms at a trailhead inside a national forest, and I wouldn't want them to.)

I guess the liberal mind-set is that Jose who mows my lawn, and Maria who cleans my motel room, should pay income taxes so that I can have fancy services that I feel entitled to as an affluent voter.

[bcrowell]

The USGS web site is selling annual passes again now, so I went ahead and ordered one. I was at Crystal Lake on Sunday (total madhouse on the road and in the area around the cafe), and the cafe was selling day passes. So it looks like things are back to the status quo ante, at least in theory. Not sure if there's actually any enforcement, since the Forest Service doesn't seem to actually want to start showing up and doing their jobs again yet.

[Tom Kenney]

I'm gonna try to avoid stepping on a landmine here, so I'll make 2 brief points:

1) @bcrowell, yes, in it's currently scaled-down form, it's fine...but it's actually a decrease in campground revenue, since the last time I paid for a campsite (Lee Vining, Sep 2000?) it was $7.00 per night. The initial program was a blanket fee for anywhere within NF boundary. To illustrate, I parked my truck near Lightning Point in 2003 to ride my bicycle in the area. As I was gearing up, a ranger drove up to me on a 4wATV and informed me I needed a pass to park there...on top of Mt Gleason, 1km from the nearest 'rustic commode'.

2) The program constitutes a use tax, enacted without a chance for public comment. I was rudely informed via windshield flyer that 'This is now law!' when I returned from a hike up Trail Cyn in Tujunga. There was a ranger sitting in a vehicle at the trailhead, seemed to be there watching people retrieve the flyers.

[tekewin]

I buy either an adventure pass or national parks pass every year. I think they are a really good deal, easy to buy on the Internet, and just store them in my truck. I think it's a much better deal than a $10 per use fee at some state parks and $3 per use fee at many OC parks. But I can see the other side of the argument, too, when the annual budget of the forest service equals about two B2 bombers. Priorities.

[AW~]

I buy either an adventure pass or national parks pass every year. I think they are a really good deal, easy to buy on the Internet, and just store them in my truck. I think it's a much better deal than a $10 per use fee at some state parks and $3 per use fee at many OC parks. But I can see the other side of the argument, too, when the annual budget of the forest service equals about two B2 bombers. Priorities.

Well....its not that simple.
On my latest beach trip here in Cali, I wanted in on some cove action, so I first went to Pt Lobos. 99.999999% love the place that is 50% developed parking lots.

And then I went to another place...so hated and considered ugly. No bathrooms, no nothing developed actually. No signs telling me swimming is illegal and that I cant climb on rocks. Egads. No signs of $280 fine for leaving trail. Not to mention no 50 signs about Covid. So who would want to go here, and be away from the beloved nanny state? Especially since the ethics are no mask allowed. Idk, but I checked it out. Call me crazy, but I thought there was nothing wrong with this place per se. I was musing at how people hate the place, so I took a selfie that featured the hawaiian water I had taking up 25% of the photo. That way I could signal how green and eco I was. The more distance is brought to a place the more woke it is.

You have some crazies is why this thing is an issue. I mean some people even pay to suffer to see a place. These people need to be cancelled. Dont they know the importance of the state?

[bcrowell]

I was rudely informed via windshield flyer that 'This is now law!' when I returned from a hike up Trail Cyn in Tujunga. There was a ranger sitting in a vehicle at the trailhead, seemed to be there watching people retrieve the flyers.

I do agree about the rudeness of the implementation. I got a ticket when I parked at Vivian Creek and hung my annual pass on the rear-view mirror. No explanation on the ticket. On my way home, I stopped at the ranger station and asked the sedentary ranger at the desk if my pass wasn't valid for parking there. He said he couldn't know for sure (because, after all, if he was the one who wrote the ticket, he wasn't going to admit it), but just hypothetically, maybe it could have possibly been because I left the pass flipped the wrong way around.

If the forest service was a private business and had competitors, they'd go bankrupt within a year due to their lousy customer service.

[bcrowell]

On my latest beach trip here in Cali, I wanted in on some cove action, so I first went to Pt Lobos. 99.999999% love the place that is 50% developed parking lots.

I grew up on the Monterey Peninsula. Vast numbers of people pay to drive along 17 Mile Drive, etc., and if they get out of their cars at all, it's just to walk around in a parking lot.

Thank God those people behave the way they do. If more than 10% of them got out of their cars and walked more than 100 feet away, the beaches would be completely ruined for wildlife and locals.

Imagine if 0.1% of the population of So Cal went to the mountains as often as we do and didn't stay in the parking lot. You'd be entering a lottery to get a permit to climb Baldy.

[bcrowell]

I've been to Baldy and San G a few times recently. Quite a contrast. There are clean portapotties at Vivian Creek/Big Falls, with toilet paper. At Manker Flat, if you go inside the fancy new outhouse it's like a scene from Dante. The bathroom at the rest stop between Baldy Village and Icehouse Canyon is somewhat less filthy, but there's no toilet paper.

At least my adventure pass money is being spent productively in half the places I go.

I did see two guys in orange vests cleaning up trash from the parking lot at Manker. Yay, good for them.

[dima]

So what's the difference? Are there far fewer visitors at Vivian Creek? Do the facilities get more attention? Both?

[bcrowell]

So what's the difference? Are there far fewer visitors at Vivian Creek? Do the facilities get more attention? Both?

Beats me. It may have to do with things like how the two two different national forests set up the details of their contracts with their contractors. It was true even before the epidemic that the beautiful new outhouse at Manker was often unusable because it was so filthy inside.

[JeffH]

I suspect part of the problem at Manker is the number of people there nearly every day.

[bcrowell]

I suspect part of the problem at Manker is the number of people there nearly every day.

Yeah, they used to have the two plastic portapotties. Doesn't the new outhouse only have a single throne?

Vivian Creek probably has half the people, and they have two or three portapotties plus two different bathroom buildings. (Are the latter open? I haven't checked.)

[bcrowell]

I've only been seeing the rest stop on Mt Baldy Rd (below Icehouse Canyon) in the dark recently, so I hadn't noticed until this week, but (a) there's a notice from April saying it's closed because of the pandemic, and (b) there's a padlock on the outer door, which had been broken off. So it looks to me like they simply haven't been cleaning any of the restrooms on Baldy since April. Ew. The one on Mt Baldy Rd was also too dirty to use the last time I looked inside the stalls.