Socal hiking Reddit frustrations

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:15 am

Ok. As some of you know, I have been slowly excavating tunnel number 5 in Las Flores canyon. I wanted some outside help, so I decided to post some photos a a description on the excavating process on the socalhiking community. I got a bunch of comments telling me I'm not being safe and not obeying leave no trace. There were even comments saying to wear a fucking hazmat suit when exploring. But then, this morning, an admin deleted my post with the following reason.

Post by **HikeUp** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:54 am

1) It's their forum, their rules, their interpretation of their rules and their decision on how to enforce their rules.
2) It's true isn't it?
3) Is it legal to do what you are doing?
4) I have no problem with what you are doing (specifically/solely in regards to this tunnel). Not that my opinion matters.
5) Did you have a question or even want my opinion? lol

Girl Hiker · Post by **Girl Hiker** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:19 am

They sound like a bunch of idiots to me.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:21 am

Girl Hiker wrote:They sound like a bunch of idiots to me.

It's their forum with their own moderation so they have the right to. But what's funky to me, is that they probably hike the lone tree trail which was refurbished by Paul Ayers. ??

Post by **dima** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:21 am

He's digging out a tunnel that's already there. Is that really "violating every leave no trace PRINCIPLE"? reddit is silly. I'll help you dig. You going there this weekend?

Post by **dima** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:25 am

Alright. Sent pm

Post by **Sean** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:54 am

I'm locking this thread while I determine whether it violates TOS.

Post by **Sean** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:27 pm

I must ask you to not solicit help for this activity on the forum, as I'm responsible for the content here under the Terms of Service with Tapatalk. You can freely discuss what you have done. But I must draw the line at asking others for help and planning future work on this project. PM me if you wish to discuss it privately. Thanks. The thread is open again.

Post by **Sean** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:02 pm

jeko1034 wrote: I got a bunch of comments telling me I'm not being safe and not obeying leave no trace.

It is dangerous, but I'm sure you know that. I'm not your mommy.

Some people use LNT like a religion and get all fundamentalist about it. Personally I think restoring trails and tunnels are fine endeavors. Though some care should be taken to learn how to do it responsibly and minimize damage to plant and animal life.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:04 pm

Exactly it. The wall next to the mine is sort of unstable so reinforcements of some kind are ideal. But I might give up on the project of the current rains filled in my work with debris.

Post by **dima** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:05 pm

Yeah. From a preservationist perspective, the best thing we all can do is drop dead. Everything else is a gray area. Getting rid of all trails would be a great way to decrease the human impact, but nobody is proposing that.

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:01 pm

HikeUp wrote: 3) Is it legal to do what you are doing?

Probably not, technically. I think the water in the canyon is owned by the Las Flores water company at that point. The tunnels look to be also.
"Las Flores Water Company, Inc. was organized in 1885 by charter members, Peter Gano and Dr. L. A. Wright. The original water source was located in Las Flores Canyon, an area at the top of Lake Avenue, just east of the Cobb Estate.
In 1881, prospectors mining for gold started tunneling in Las Flores Canyon. The tunnels extended into the mountain from about 400 to 600 feet, looking for gold. There was extensive gold prospecting between the years of 1886 to 1894. Instead of finding gold through the tunnels, they found water in underground springs. At times the water would flood the tunnels. The tunnels are still there today, but are sealed off so that no one has access to them. At times, the tunnel entries are covered and surrounded by large patches of poison oak. "

And if we had to go hard-core legal....the tunnels are probably a historical artifact as well. Ive been told by one FS employee once it was illegal to disturb a historical artifact without a permit....even if historically it was considered trash. Thus the trash was entered into a registry and the waypoints recorded....perhaps to get ahead of any ideas of removing the garbage without FS permission hehehehe.

Plus in this case, I know for sure that any disturbance of a roadless area without a permit is illegal. It would have to be in writing to the FS, the environmental review, etc. In fact, there was online the maintenance of a drainage underneath the road that had to be expensive in terms of all the paperwork that was involved...and that was basically to add more cement to the eroded bottom of the tunnel. Also included was a required 'remediaton' of the surface used to get to said site.

And then there is the clean air&water acts. There was the case recently where a farmer disturbed water(seasonal puddle on his land) undergoing a developmental activity.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... eld-witho/
And also the city of industry got a big fine as well at East Fork.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:38 pm

AW~ wrote:
HikeUp wrote: 3) Is it legal to do what you are doing?
Probably not, technically. I think the water in the canyon is owned by the Las Flores water company at that point. The tunnels look to be also.
"Las Flores Water Company, Inc. was organized in 1885 by charter members, Peter Gano and Dr. L. A. Wright. The original water source was located in Las Flores Canyon, an area at the top of Lake Avenue, just east of the Cobb Estate.
In 1881, prospectors mining for gold started tunneling in Las Flores Canyon. The tunnels extended into the mountain from about 400 to 600 feet, looking for gold. There was extensive gold prospecting between the years of 1886 to 1894. Instead of finding gold through the tunnels, they found water in underground springs. At times the water would flood the tunnels. The tunnels are still there today, but are sealed off so that no one has access to them. At times, the tunnel entries are covered and surrounded by large patches of poison oak. "

And if we had to go hard-core legal....the tunnels are probably a historical artifact as well. Ive been told by one FS employee once it was illegal to disturb a historical artifact without a permit....even if historically it was considered trash. Thus the trash was entered into a registry and the waypoints recorded....perhaps to get ahead of any ideas of removing the garbage without FS permission hehehehe.

Plus in this case, I know for sure that any disturbance of a roadless area without a permit is illegal. It would have to be in writing to the FS, the environmental review, etc. In fact, there was online the maintenance of a drainage underneath the road that had to be expensive in terms of all the paperwork that was involved...and that was basically to add more cement to the eroded bottom of the tunnel. Also included was a required 'remediaton' of the surface used to get to said site.

And then there is the clean air&water acts. There was the case recently where a farmer disturbed water(seasonal puddle on his land) undergoing a developmental activity.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... eld-witho/
And also the city of industry got a big fine as well at East Fork.

So I have permission by word of mouth by a guy who works at Las Flores water company. They even have me a 1906 dated map to find the missing tunnels. Sadly I have not asked for written permission but that would probably be handy.

Post by **Uncle Rico** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:22 am

So I have permission by word of mouth...

If it ain't in writing, it never happened. Just sayin'

If you're not on someone's radar at this point, I'd be surprised.