does "ultralight" really matter?

MattCav · Post by **MattCav** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:46 am

ok, so here's an honest question that i'd like to get opinions on:

i am doing long day hikes pretty often, in the 15-25 mile range. i have been trying to shed ounces (e.g. just changed to a lighter backpack, switching from nalgenes to gatorade plastic bottles, etc...) and have gone from approx 217 oz to 198 oz, a difference of 19 oz. In other terms, my pack weight has dropped from 12 lb 6 oz to 13 lb 9 oz (and both of those have 5L of drink included, taking up most of the weight)

Does this matter?

On a backpacking trip I can certainly understand this philosophy... but what about a long day hike? Same thing, is it helpful? Will it enable me to really move faster or is this a placebo effect, more or less?

It might seem like a silly question but I thought it'd be worth getting input on. Thanks

mattmaxon · Post by **mattmaxon** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:47 am

For me it makes a difference

I also don't think it wise to take yourself to the limit on any outdoor trip. Should something happen you'll need energy to take care of the problem

But I have to keep the weight on my back as low as possible due to a severe back injury 19 years ago.

Without ultralight I'd not be able to backpack.

simonov · Post by **simonov** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:03 am

There can be no doubt that a lighter pack allows you to move faster, farther, higher. But there is a cost to everything.

I am the opposite of an ultralight hiker. I tend to carry a lot of stuff that I typically never use "just in case" (especially in winter, when "just in case" could mean assisting an injured climber and keeping him warm, while keeping myself warm at the same time). I have been on hikes, for example, where hikers' boots fell apart (a common scourge now that sewn welts are so unfashionable); we would pull out duct tape, spare straps and other emergency items to repair their boots. Ultralight hikers don't have any of that unnecessary stuff. I often wonder what they do when their gear fails.

I also carry a lot of items to make my trip more comfortable. After all, it's recreation, right? I'm supposed to be enjoying myself.

I'd like to carry a lighter pack, but after literally decades of doing this I just can't figure out how.

The word "ultralight" definitely has negative connotations for me. It seems to be as much of a fashion as a doctrine. I used to manage the presentation series for the OCHC and every year we would have the president of, I think, Gossamer Gear (or maybe GoLite) do a slide show on ultralight backpacking. The room would fill with these younger people I had never seen before and they would get very excited about the techniques shown, such as competitive weighing of packs at the trailhead; eating supper in the middle of the afternoon so that you can stay warm later by continuing to hike until you stop and immediately get into bed; dispensing with a jacket and using your sleeping bag instead, etc.

What I saw in that slide show was a lot of cold, wet people who were making the entire enterprise look a lot like work and not at all like weekend fun.

Being a heavy pack guy, my approach is simply to not go as far in a day. Eleven miles up Mt San Gorgonio seems to be about my limit for a day. Maybe it would be nice to be able to go another five or even ten miles, but what's the hurry?

I used to backpack with a guy who embraced ultralight in preparation for through hikes on the John Muir Trail and the Pacific Crest Trail. A year or so ago when he did the John Muir Trail and sent back photos, I noticed most of the other through hikers he met did not have ultralight gear; they didn't even have internal frame packs. Most of them seemed to be thoroughly old school with old frame packs.

Anyway, that's one crotchety old hiker's opinion. Going lighter is good, but never forget to bring whatever you might need to survive an injury that would immobilize you for at least one night. And it would be great if in addition to surviving such an unanticipated overnight, you did so in relative comfort.

Elwood · Post by **Elwood** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:16 am

I would have to agree with Mr. Simonov. I like to take what I like to take on longish day hikes; 20 to 30 miles. It is not unusual for me to start one of these with ~ 25 Lbs. of pack, depending upon the likelihood of trailside water. While not particularly scientific, I look at every oz. of gear carried as a few more calories burned over the course of the day. Speed is secondary to me behind enjoying the environment, taking pictures, watching critters, clearing trails, etc. I find that being able to move efficiently with that extra weight helps my stamina in other endeavours, though none so enjoyable as hiking.

Ze Hiker · Post by **Ze Hiker** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:31 am

as a basic approximation, think about the % change in total weight (bodyweight + backpack weight), and use that as an estimate in the change in calories burned, as well as a change in speed. Let's say its a 3% change. A 3% increase of a 4 hr ascent is ~ 7 min. Is that 7 min worth dropping 5 lbs of stuff?

hvydrt · Post by **hvydrt** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:42 am

Simonov has some good points. It think some people take it too far and are uncomfortable and could be in big trouble in a major emergency.

I think it makes a bigger difference when you are going for several days or weeks rather than on a day hike or one night backpacking trip. One of the biggest things to save weight on is water. This really depends on where you are going, but places like Vivian Creek, South Fork, and most anywhere in the Sierra, there is no reason to carry more than 2 liters of water. If I know there is reliable water along the way, I use it. Going from 5 liters to 2 saves you 6.6 pounds.

MattCav · Post by **MattCav** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:00 am

Cool, this all makes sense to me. I definitely would never leave behind necessary things like food and water/electrolytes, as well as emergency things and layers. However, I'm pondering more things like using lighter bottles, pack, etc. Still, this is all really helpful and a good conversation. Thanks.

Post by **Taco** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:17 am

I might ruffle some feathers, but this is my opinion and dammit, I gotta say it for once. I hold back too much.

I used to use a military-style of doing things, that of being prepared for everything. Now that I've "seen the light" (pun intended), I don't do that anymore, because it's ridiculous. I used to carry anywhere from a nice light 55lb pack up to a 150lb pack for whatever distance, usually a 10 mile circuit. 150lbs isn't the heaviest pack carried.

Some of my buddies on here prefer to carry more comfort items. More power to them! One should do what brings them more joy. I do not like that, nor do I like expedition style climbing (think bringing a buncha stuff to point A, then climbing to summit B and back).

I think the lightweight ethos isn't about the gear, it's about the mindset. Do you think that native people of any land carried massive packs full of all manners of stuff everywhere they went? A good recent example would be a comparison between US Soldiers and Marines conducting special operations in Afghanistan. "Light" to a civilian is naked compared to what a Soldier must carry. Soldiers operating over there have to cross tough terrain with what amounts to basically too much weight, while Pashtun in the area carry almost nothing, just an AK and the clothes on their back, and sometimes other kit as well. They don't have water, they don't have NOD's, they don't have so much stuff, but as a result they're very light, very fast, and very quiet. They are closer to what humans are supposed to be... very light, bare bones, no bullshit. An Allied Coalition Soldier operating in the same environment must carry much more equipment, which weighs them down, makes them slower, makes them less capable of reacting to contact, makes them clumsier than they'd like to be, basically reduces their effectiveness.

پښتون مجاهدين

Be like a Pashtun. Go light. They don't care about brand names, they just go light.

We were meant to go light.

Matt said that one should not push themselves to the limit on any outdoor trip. I very strongly respect Matt, and I look up to him. I have a different opinion, however, probably also stemming from military experience (small unit tactics, special operations kinda stuff), where a lot is required of a small team of very professional warriors. I strive to push beyond my "limit", because the limit is simply a point where we finally start to grow. I honestly do not enjoy climbing a route that I can climb easily. I'd explain this further if we were talking face to face. It's an injustice to try to describe this very basically spiritual pursuit in a text medium. It is a very mental and very spiritual thing for me.

Your mileage may vary. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, but I gotta say my side. I don't have kids or dependents.

Cheers

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:47 am

So much of this is subjective and relative. So everyone is right.

Ze is right that how much difference the pack weight makes depends on your own body weight. So for a small guy like me, a 35 lb pack make a huge difference compared to a 20 lb pack and then a 15 lb pack. But the difference between 12 lbs and 13 lbs is probably negligible for you.

The really ultralight day hikers are the trail runner dudes and dudettes. Sometimes they don't even have a pack--just some water bottles in their hands. Or they have those hip packs with just bottles and a small snack. None of them have the 10 essentials and that might be fine because they're moving fast and minimizing their time here.

I see them and I really envy them, but I'm not fast and I'm out here for 10+ hours in remote terrain so I'm not comfortable being that naked. It's a risk we all have to weigh in terms of what we're willing to bring.

But considering the bigger topic that Taco mentioned, I also prefer being light, agile and maneuverable. It just feels more natural and on a day hike you don't really need much. So I really hate weight, but sometimes I bring luxury items too like binoculars and cameras because it's fun.

JayO · Post by **JayO** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:45 am

Why not serve both masters? Take the essentials, be prepared for what you are facing out on the trails - and just lose 5 pounds of body weight? That way you will carry what you need & be more efficient as well.

AlanK · Post by **AlanK** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:13 am

JayO wrote: Why not serve both masters? Take the essentials, be prepared for what you are facing out on the trails - and just lose 5 pounds of body weight? That way you will carry what you need & be more efficient as well.

Jay makes a great point. I love the conversations I have with people who pay many hundreds of dollars to shave a few ounces off of the weight of their bicycles and continue to carry an extra 25 pounds around the midsection.

Burchey · Post by **Burchey** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:59 am

Taco wrote: I might ruffle some feathers, but this is my opinion and dammit, I gotta say it for once. I hold back too much.
I have a different opinion, however, probably also stemming from military experience (small unit tactics, special operations kinda stuff), where a lot is required of a small team of very professional warriors. I strive to push beyond my "limit", because the limit is simply a point where we finally start to grow. I honestly do not enjoy climbing a route that I can climb easily. I'd explain this further if we were talking face to face. It's an injustice to try to describe this very basically spiritual pursuit in a text medium. It is a very mental and very spiritual thing for me.

Cheers

I want to go on a Taco trip.

simonov · Post by **simonov** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:34 am

Burchey wrote:
Taco wrote: I might ruffle some feathers, but this is my opinion and dammit, I gotta say it for once. I hold back too much.
I have a different opinion, however, probably also stemming from military experience (small unit tactics, special operations kinda stuff), where a lot is required of a small team of very professional warriors. I strive to push beyond my "limit", because the limit is simply a point where we finally start to grow. I honestly do not enjoy climbing a route that I can climb easily. I'd explain this further if we were talking face to face. It's an injustice to try to describe this very basically spiritual pursuit in a text medium. It is a very mental and very spiritual thing for me.

I want to go on a Taco trip.

A couple Halloweens ago, Taco spent the night with us on top of Mt San Gorgonio with no sleeping bag. I don't think he brought any food, either.

But he did bring a sombrero:

So that's ultralight.

Burchey · Post by **Burchey** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:45 am

simonov wrote: A couple Halloweens ago, Taco spent the night with us on top of Mt San Gorgonio with no sleeping bag. I don't think he brought any food, either.

But he did bring a sombrero:

So that's ultralight.

HAHA! So awesome, was it windstopper at least?

I don't pack that light, but I like the idea of always challenging yourself and not climbing things that are easy for you. I'm not having a good time unless I think I might die. That being said, what's easy for Taco may not qualify as easy for me, based on amount of time spent at altitude, etc. And the sombrero, based on that as well.