Basic Mountaineering Orientation - Winter 2011

Post by **Taco** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:02 pm

Ah, gotcha. We'll see.

norma r · Post by **norma r** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:20 pm

c 'ya on the 8th! 8)

leeza22 · Post by **leeza22** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:59 am

Yes! I am so excited! My husband and I just got our first ice axes, and are waiting on the crampons. We have a lot of experience in hiking/backpacking but this year definitely want to do winter climbing. We are planning a trip to San Jacinto for the Christmas weekend to get accustomed to our new gear, and we will definitely join you guys on one of the dates at least. We've been wanting to meet more people that share our love for the outdoors, so this will be great!

Post by **Taco** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:42 pm

I'm looking forward to working with y'all on the 8th. 8)

Johnny Bronson · Post by **Johnny Bronson** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:22 am

bertfivesix wrote: ↑I am VERY down to try out roped team glacier travel and rescue scenarios.

That sounds good! Setting up crevasse anchors,ratchets/pulleys,training team work etc,I am very down for that.

On the subject of "roped"...
How about some roped vertical ice climbing Bert? =D

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:36 pm

How do you simulate crevasse rescue without a crevasse?

platypii · Post by **platypii** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:40 pm

Zach wrote: ↑How do you simulate crevasse rescue without a crevasse?

It's not that hard actually.

To practice self-rescue out of a crevasse, you can start by getting your prussicing dialed-in while hanging from a tree or cliff. With a heavy pack on your back throwing you off balance of course.

To practice anchor building and hauling systems, just find any cliff or even just a moderately steep snow slope. The only thing that would fail to simulate is the effect of the rope cutting into the lip of a crevasse, but other than that, the skills and systems will all be about the same.

Johnny Bronson · Post by **Johnny Bronson** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:55 pm

Zach wrote: ↑How do you simulate crevasse rescue without a crevasse?

Easy as apple pie my friend,=)

Crevasse rescue and self rescue can be practiced anywhere there is a slope or slight overhang,you can even do it on flat ground in your backyard,just have to be creative =D.Majority of the techniques can be practiced far from a crevasse,like building anchors while pinned down,escaping the belay while under load,transferring loads,setting up a mechanical pulley to create a raise/lower,passing knots,jugging with a prussic/autoblocks (off a tree) etc etc.It is all the same techniques as rescuing someone or self rescue while rock climbing.The only difference is building anchors in the snow/ice.Hard to simulate making a ice screw v thread or deadmans snow anchor in dirt or grass haha

Safety being the main factor in teaching the techniques in big groups.The main key is to have a few people use their weight together if its done on level ground,or fairly low angle areas.(you could do it solo by using heavy ballasts).

Basically simulating a weighted hanging partner needing to get pulled up or lowered.Putting a heavy load on the person doing the rescue work,pulling the weight and/or lowering the weight,taking weight off you(transferring loads) and putting it on the anchor,setting up mechanical advantages,passing knots etc while being in a safe setting(low angle slope or flat ground).

So all in all,rigging up the anchors while being pinned by a few hundred lbs of weight,setting up a mechanical advantage pulley systems,rigging ratchets/raises/lowers can all be simulated without an actual crevasse.(For obvious safety factors)

The only part of self rescue in a crevasse that cant be simulated well without an overhang or some kind of drop is jugging/prussicing,but even then to simulate Jugging/prussicing,it can be done over a short overhang,(balcony etc) or even a tree.

mve · Post by **mve** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:43 pm

I guess you guys are right, all the technique can be dialed-in and practiced without an actual crevasse and that's probably the most important thing here -- to learn the technique. One thing we can't simulate is the "fear factor" created by the crevasse: the bottomless pit, closing-in walls, ice-cold water dripping into your clothing and the shear terror of knowing that any wrong move will pin you there forever ...

Did you see the simulated crevasses (ice-pits) they use in Swiss Alps? Cool stuff (See from 1:47 ...):

bertfivesix · Post by **bertfivesix** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:09 am

I will hear none of this crevasse-less crevasse rescue training nonsense!

We will DIG A CREVASSE!

mve · Post by **mve** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:56 am

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:02 am

Haven't read this entire thread, so maybe someone has suggested this already, but just in case - you might consider practicing roped travel as well. Harnesses help, but aren't essential - you can tie the rope around your waist. It's not a difficult skill to learn, as it's mostly teamwork. But, learning how to switchback up a steep slope, reversing direction without stepping on the rope with your pointy things, all the while in cadence with others on your team - it's as much as art as it is a science.

norma r · Post by **norma r** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:53 pm

bertfivesix wrote: ↑I will hear none of this crevasse-less crevasse rescue training nonsense! We will DIG A CREVASSE!

kinda' hard to do when you ain't got no snow! have you seen Baldy lately?

time to start praying! if it worked for Israel this week it can work for dear old Saint Anthony!

simonov · Post by **simonov** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:32 pm

Johnny Bronson wrote: ↑ The only part of self rescue in a crevasse that cant be simulated well without an overhang or some kind of drop is jugging/prussicing,but even then to simulate Jugging/prussicing,it can be done over a short overhang,(balcony etc) or even a tree.

Last year I installed a metal ring in a roof beam in my office, about 12 or 13 feet from the floor. Fritz and I practiced self-rescue off that.

I moved offices this year and will have to install another ring in my new place.

mve · Post by **mve** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:22 pm

norma r wrote: ↑
bertfivesix wrote: ↑I will hear none of this crevasse-less crevasse rescue training nonsense! We will DIG A CREVASSE!
kinda' hard to do when you ain't got no snow! have you seen Baldy lately?

We don't need snow! We'll do it RUSSIAN style: https://eispiraten.com/viewtopic.php?t=3188

leeza22 · Post by **leeza22** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:24 pm

MVE

I agree...we will do it RUSSIAN style!

Post by **Taco** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:25 am

Kevin wrote: ↑Haven't read this entire thread, so maybe someone has suggested this already, but just in case - you might consider practicing roped travel as well. Harnesses help, but aren't essential - you can tie the rope around your waist. It's not a difficult skill to learn, as it's mostly teamwork. But, learning how to switchback up a steep slope, reversing direction without stepping on the rope with your pointy things, all the while in cadence with others on your team - it's as much as art as it is a science.

This would be a good idea. Would you be willing to help in this department?

Russian style = painful. I'm in.

Dave G · Post by **Dave G** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:48 am

Hey Ryan, is this still happening on the 8th and is there some sort of itinerary? I might show up to help out, annoy people, or God forbid, learn something new.

Post by **Taco** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:12 pm

Yup, show up at Manker Flats at 6am. Sound like a good time? Figure we'd leave by 630.

simonov · Post by **simonov** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:54 pm

I was more thinking of meeting at the Ski Hut. It might be better than waiting around in the parking lot for people to show up, especially latecomers.

I'm thinking of getting up there early and making . . . PANCAKES!

titanhangman · Post by **titanhangman** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:44 pm

This kills me but I fractured my wrist last Tuesday night, and my winter mountaineering career appears to be on hold for a while. I was really looking forward to meeting many new people and learning from you. I've been to the ER twice in two weeks for two different things.

Post by **Taco** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:16 pm

Simonov, that sounds good. I still want to meet up at the parking lot though, as some folks probably are unfamiliar with how to get onto the Ski hut trail.

Titan, hang in there! That stuff sucks! Been there myself far too many times. There's always another day.

jbowman18 · Post by **jbowman18** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:10 pm

Plan on tagging along on Saturday morning.

Is anybody coming from Orange, or in between there and the parking lot, that want to share a ride?

josh dot bowman18 at gmail

If not, seeya on Saturday!

Mike P · Post by **Mike P** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:03 pm

I'm in. Just received the crampons, ice ax, etc for Christmas.
I may bring another relatively inexperienced guy along, too.

Post by **Taco** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:18 pm

Cool beans, looking forward to meeting everyone this saturday!

bluerail · Post by **bluerail** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:10 pm

I don't really care if I slip and die on a mountain....I just miss seeing some of you guys.

6 a.m. ?

can I bring my best friend ?

Lcpl Hughes · Post by **Lcpl Hughes** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:03 pm

Looking forward to this..thanks for putting it on 8)

Thanks for the heads up Patrick

Post by **Taco** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:34 am

bluerail wrote: ↑I don't really care if I slip and die on a mountain....I just miss seeing some of you guys.

6 a.m. ?

can I bring my best friend ?

I don't know if there are enough snow donuts for him.

Dave G · Post by **Dave G** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:00 am

bluerail wrote: ↑can I bring my best friend ?

Only if he promises to not molest our trees.

Looking forward to seeing you guys!

Funyan005 · Post by **Funyan005** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:13 am

Anyone happen to have a gps track of their route from
the base of the bowl to the top? Interested in the stats as I've never done it and want to compare it to the normal route thru the trees. Would greatly appreciate it!

Dave