Station Fire Congressional Hearing, Pasadena, 10/12/10

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:55 pm

Disclaimers: If this is off-topic, please feel free to move it to "Off Topic" or whatever. Also, I am not an investigative journalist. Therefore, the following is my personal experience and recollections of this hearing. I'm sharing it so others who couldn't be there can hear about it. I am also not a fire fighter or a forest service employee, so having freely admitted that, I don't need to be reminded. I can still have an opinion about my own personal experience today.

I attended the hearing, as I had the day off work. I expected a lot of posturing by the Congressmen and women with an election coming up, and a rather short regurgitation of facts already known. However, I was surprised and impressed to see some very smart, hardworking representatives really doing their job, and doing it well.

There were two panels, and two parts to the hearing, which lasted from 9am until 1:30pm. The first focused on figuring out the events of the firefighting effort in the first two days. The second talked more about future changes to the system. News media had a corner filled with cameras for the first segment, then all left figuring the policy issues would be boring I guess.

I took notes so I could remember specific things accurately, but since the transcripts will be released to the public, and Paul Pringle (who was there, and I got to meet him and thank him for his work) will have an article covering it in the next day or two, I'll just focus on a few key impressions.

I've seen movies where these things are dramatized, and seen coverage of other similar hearings on TV. It is a vastly different experience to be there in person. To be in a room with people who are lying, who know they're lying, and know that everyone else knows they're lying....who just keep lying...it's kind of crazy, and very disturbing, especially when it concerns an event that is personally so relevant.

Will Spyrison, the incident commander for the initial attack (someone else took over after the first two days), was questioned most about having enough resources on the fire early on. He seemed to stumble immediately, saying he thought it would have helped to have air support early in the morning of the second day, that's why he ordered planes to arrive at 7am (they didn't actually show up until after 9am). He (EDIT - this questioning was focused on Tom Harbour director of fire and aviation management for the U.S. Forest Service) then realized he needed to backpeddle, apparently, and Brad Sherman in particular kept trying to get a consistent answer with him on this issue. The stock response became "well, that's a "what-if" scenario" (Officially, the FS maintains nothing could have been done, which makes their assertions that policy changes have now been made to improve things in the future, somewhat contradictory)

Spyrison apparently put an order in for aircraft around 12:30 am, but could not get confirmation that the order had been filled throughout those early morning hours.

All we know is that he placed the order, a dispatch operator prepared the order, but did not send it on to "South Ops" to be filled. She said someone told her to "hold" the order.

This is where the lying got out of control. Despite an hour of questioning on this topic, there is no answer from the Forest Service about who told her to hold the order, and why. They are "looking into it". (It seems to me they could ask the dispatcher who told her to hold the order, and why. But maybe that's armchair quarterbacking. Maybe they need more than an entire year to do that)

In the end, the official statement is that it "wouldn't have mattered anyway", despite Spryrison himself saying he urgently requested the resources during a "window of opportunity" at first light, before the day started to heat up and the humidity from the night hours evaporated.

Then there was the finding that the Martin Mars aircraft - which costs $1million (of your money) to keep on standby, whether they use it or not - was in the area and asked if they could drop their 6,000 gallons of water on the still small fire. They were told "no thanks", and proceeded to drop the water somewhere random, since they need to unload before the plane can land.

A few county fire officials had some strong opinions on this.

Personally, I felt badly for Spyrison, who seemed to be harshly questioned on things that were not under his control or responsibility. The other FS personnel there seemed content to sit in the row behind him, watching him sweat, and offered no peep of support or defense. Nice, guys.

Jody Noiron presented some lovely Google Earth images on an overhead projector, and one "flowchart" which consisted of names of departments, connected with red arrows. She vigorously denied that cost had anything to do with decision making, and was "not aware" of the report in the LA Times which found otherwise, just a couple of days ago. Brad Sherman commented that he found it interesting that Paul Pringle apparently knows more about the situation than she, prompting nervous, angry laughter.

I'd have to look at my notes to get the names of everyone straight, but I was impressed with the county firefighting representatives. They were very cooperative, well spoken, and had strong opinions based on their experience (which is considerable).

I still have some sympathy for the FS, since I know they don't have enough money, equipment, or time (who does??) but the obfuscation is inexcusable and offensive.

Also, I really like Brad Sherman and Adam Schiff now. They did their homework, and I believe them when they say they will follow through on this.

I'm looking forward to Pringle's article, since it will obviously be much more concise than my ramblings.

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:22 pm

OH yeah, after the hearing we went to Roscoe's for chicken and waffles.

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:25 pm

Nice write up, CM. Very Cogent.

I dislike dissembling greatly. Unfortunately, the Forest Service seems far more committed to dissembling than fire fighting.

HJ

AW~ · Post by **AW~** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:42 pm

Hikin_Jim wrote:Nice write up, CM. Very Cogent.

I dislike dissembling greatly. Unfortunately, the Forest Service seems far more committed to dissembling than fire fighting.

HJ

I suspect they were doing brush clearance on the sly. Someone did a wonderful job fighting the Morris fire, so someone knows how to fight a fire.

LA County doesnt get a free pass in my book....overall excellent, but Big T/Sunland/Tujunga. They were MIA on that day 2-3-4 and failed to recognize the importance of stopping the fire at BigT.

Post by **HikeUp** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:45 pm

Thanks for the "TR" CM. I probably would have lost it when they were trying to find out who told that dispatch operator to hold the order. That kind of blatant criminal douchebaggery really pisses me off.

cougarmagic wrote:However, I was surprised and impressed to see some very smart, hardworking representatives really doing their job, and doing it well.

You almost lost all credibility with this statement

lilbitmo · Post by **lilbitmo** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:55 pm

Hikin_Jim wrote: I dislike dissembling greatly. Unfortunately, the Forest Service seems far more committed to dissembling than fire fighting.HJ

That's another form of firefighting - it's called putting out the "Media/Public" firestorm - Thank you CM for taking time out of your day to give us an inside view of that meeting, it's greatly appreciated

Ze Hiker · Post by **Ze Hiker** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:59 pm

cougarmagic wrote: Then there was the finding that the Martin Mars aircraft - which costs $1million (of your money) to keep on standby, whether they use it or not - was in the area and asked if they could drop their 6,000 gallons of water on the still small fire. They were told "no thanks", and proceeded to drop the water somewhere random, since they need to unload before the plane can land.

what the hell?!!!

Ze Hiker · Post by **Ze Hiker** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:01 pm

cougarmagic wrote:OH yeah, after the hearing we went to Roscoe's for chicken and waffles.

the order of frying - forest, chicken, Noiron...

hvydrt · Post by **hvydrt** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:01 pm

Great trip report. Did you need crampons or an ice axe?

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:06 pm

hvydrt wrote:Great trip report. Did you need crampons or and ice axe?

She definitely could have used crampons. Unfortunately none of the FS personnel would lay flat on the floor for her to properly use them.

HJ

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:06 pm

Hikin_Jim wrote:
hvydrt wrote:Great trip report. Did you need crampons or and ice axe?
She definitely could have used crampons.

Neither made it through the metal detector at the courthouse, unfortunately. I did experience nausea though.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:59 am

My thanks as well for keeping us informed with such a detailed writeup, CM.

Was there any mention of the sluggish and apparently incomplete FS response to the FoIA request from the LAT reporter?

Will be looking forward to the upcoming LAT article.

Yikes... that was acronym-heavy.

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:09 am

turtle wrote:Was there any mention of the sluggish and apparently incomplete FS response to the FoIA request from the LAT reporter?

Not officially. When we talked to him (Pringle) after the hearing, he asked for our reaction, and we said the most striking thing was the FS being so obviously evasive on the dispatch question. Pringle said "Yeah, that's exactly what I've been dealing with for months, with everything." (meaning - they just say that they don't know where something is, or if it exists, and that they'll look into it)

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:58 am

Too bad it's not like the military. When McCrystal's guys mouthed off, the prez relieved him of his command and he was basically put out to pasture. Wouldn't it be nice if they could do that with the FS?

HJ

Ze Hiker · Post by **Ze Hiker** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:01 am

why can't they? someone has the ability...

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:32 pm

Zé wrote:why can't they? someone has the ability...

I believe it's called "civil service" which means you can't be fired unless you actively murder someone and there are at least ten eye witnesses. Short of that, good luck.

HJ

outwhere · Post by **outwhere** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:15 am

Thanks for the report there Cougarmagic!

I am still puzzled at how this fire got away.

It barely grew within the first 24 hours.

Only miles away, merely days before, the fire near Morris Dam was knocked down relatively quickly.

When the Station Fire broke out, the winds and/or temperatures were as mirror images of the Morris Dam fire.

What happened? Or should I say, what didn't happen?

EManBevHills · Post by **EManBevHills** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:11 am

Many thanks for taking the time to go to the hearing and provide us with your objective comments on the continuing lies, obfuscation, and perpetual denial of responsibility that has been the modus operandi since this travesty began, Johanna. What I think galls me the most is the apparent lack of accountability and remorse.

Besides being conniving enough to get a "transfer", Jody is fortunate that our society no longer sanctions what would have historically been considered an appropriate punishment:

cougarmagic · Post by **cougarmagic** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:25 pm

Zé wrote:what the hell?!!!

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Bombe ... story.html

"They put us up to 8,000 feet and then we were staring right at the Station fire," Coulson said. The blaze at the time was only about 10 to 12 hectares, said Coulson. The Mars had enough water and gel on board to douse 1.6 hectares.

The USFS rep in the chopper radioed his colleague at the Station fire and asked if the Mars could drop its load there. No other air tankers were nearby. "He said, 'No, I'm good -- go dump it behind some cat [firebreak] line,' " Coulson said.

So the Mars turned away from the Station fire and dropped the load on a hillside where there was no fire, said Coulson.

Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Bombe ... z12O1MwN6N

EManBevHills · Post by **EManBevHills** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:30 pm

Did I read this correctly?
They dumped the load in order to land but not on the fire?
WTF!

Post by **Hikin_Jim** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:30 pm

EManBevHills wrote:Did I read this correctly?
They dumped the load in order to land but not on the fire?
WTF!

Your tax dollars at work. Isn't it nice to have people like Jody Moron, oops, I mean Noiron running the show? And you can't touch them because of civil service (aka "jobs for life").

HJ

PackerGreg · Post by **PackerGreg** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:15 pm

To find out what the firefighters are saying, browse the comments over at http://www.wildlandfire.com/theysaid.htm

Bill · Post by **Bill** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:58 pm

Hikin_Jim wrote:Too bad it's not like the military. When McCrystal's guys mouthed off, the prez relieved him of his command and he was basically put out to pasture. Wouldn't it be nice if they could do that with the FS?

HJ

Actually, McCrystals problem is he spoke his mind. These people won't say what everyone already knows. The FS gambled they could save money by not using expensive air assets. There were other issues as well which were addressed by LACOFD regarding FS policy of no night drops. Mistakes were made for sure, not sure what AW is referring to at lower Big T though. We lost two of our finest trying to save camp 16 and they were among the most knowledgeable and finest firefighters in the country. This is not easy work here.

Alot of variables.