There have been a number of trip reports and accounts of the accident on the 23rd.
As an outsider looking in on the incident it sounds like everyone did a great job in caring for a fellow mountaineer in a bad situation. Everyone that provided assistance should be proud.
Considering what worked well and what didn't, what, if anything would you change? What are the lessons learned? Would things have worked as well if Sara hadn't been there? What if a helo extraction wasn't possible at all?
Did anyone feel that their medical skills were woefully lacking? What if some of the key players weren't there? You saw that even in a good situation emergency responders can take a long time to reach some of these areas.
Is there a better balance of preparedness vs. light/fast that you feel you should consider?
Just curious what people are thinking....
Baldy Accident - Lessons Learned
I agree with the thought. . .
I am a rescue diver and keep current on my certifications and its always the best idea to go prepared. You need to always take the basic items you might need to survive -- you don't dive without air and you don't rock climb without protection (unless you're a little crazy
) so why climb without being prepared.
I won't suggest what that should mean to each individual but when these things happen it should make us all think.
UPDATE: I was at REI Rancho today and the girl that fell is the girlfriend of an REI employee. She is doing well and is expected to make a full recovery.
I am a rescue diver and keep current on my certifications and its always the best idea to go prepared. You need to always take the basic items you might need to survive -- you don't dive without air and you don't rock climb without protection (unless you're a little crazy
) so why climb without being prepared. I won't suggest what that should mean to each individual but when these things happen it should make us all think.
UPDATE: I was at REI Rancho today and the girl that fell is the girlfriend of an REI employee. She is doing well and is expected to make a full recovery.
If I may put my two cents in...
Train with the tools you have at hand. One needn't bring 80lbs of Boy Scout Essentials to be safe.
Train to self-arrest with your axe, crampons off and crampons on. If you climb something, train to self arrest on it. Train to self arrest with your trekking poles, and hey, with your snowshoes on too. So many folks climb the Bowl in snowshoes, only to switch to crampons right as they're "downrange", and on a pretty steep slope. OK, now you don't have an axe in your hand (it's on your pack), you're taking your snowshoes off... BAM, you lose it and things go into slow motion. Now what?
I once fell/slid from the summit of Thunder Mountain to the bottom of the ski lift that hits the summit because I was ignorant. I was recently knocked down in the Bowl (Taco Sauce Couloir) by a huge rock, fell 6 feet or so, and self-arrested on 70 degree ICE on this technical route, despite so many people dismissing self-arrest on steep snow and ice as "impossible". Few people have trained for this as a result!
Being largely a solo alpinist has taught me a great deal about what's appropriately termed "risk management". I climb routes that lots of folks have said were suicide, or impossible, or whatever, but it's the attitude that makes it impossible. One must have the right attitude, and train properly to avoid hurting your friends and family. One makes decisions that very immediately and directly affect the outcome of their life.
Train train train.
Also, I am moving this topic to General Discussion.
Train with the tools you have at hand. One needn't bring 80lbs of Boy Scout Essentials to be safe.
Train to self-arrest with your axe, crampons off and crampons on. If you climb something, train to self arrest on it. Train to self arrest with your trekking poles, and hey, with your snowshoes on too. So many folks climb the Bowl in snowshoes, only to switch to crampons right as they're "downrange", and on a pretty steep slope. OK, now you don't have an axe in your hand (it's on your pack), you're taking your snowshoes off... BAM, you lose it and things go into slow motion. Now what?
I once fell/slid from the summit of Thunder Mountain to the bottom of the ski lift that hits the summit because I was ignorant. I was recently knocked down in the Bowl (Taco Sauce Couloir) by a huge rock, fell 6 feet or so, and self-arrested on 70 degree ICE on this technical route, despite so many people dismissing self-arrest on steep snow and ice as "impossible". Few people have trained for this as a result!
Being largely a solo alpinist has taught me a great deal about what's appropriately termed "risk management". I climb routes that lots of folks have said were suicide, or impossible, or whatever, but it's the attitude that makes it impossible. One must have the right attitude, and train properly to avoid hurting your friends and family. One makes decisions that very immediately and directly affect the outcome of their life.
Train train train.
Also, I am moving this topic to General Discussion.
I spoke with Sara over the phone in bits & pieces while she was still very tired the day after the rescue. She was disappointed in how the whole thing played out by the responders. I can tell you that between Sara and another hiker in our group named Bob (a retired sheriff), they provided support and used knowledge that made Natalie more comfortable emotionally and physically. Sara did mention that the responders were not physically fit and could not have carried Natalie all the way down the mtn had that been necessary. Scary!! Then the first Black Hawk had a broken hoist and had to either be repaired or another heli was substituted and arrived, 1.5 hrs later! "Woefully Lacking" or more appropriately, WTF?
I agree with Taco that being experienced with self-arrest is mandatory before climbing the bowl. It doesn't mean you'll be able to arrest your fall but at least you have a chance of saving your life.
Also, i personally have a Spot messenger and a 911 message can be sent via satellite immediately instead of having someone hike down the trail and into the village or beyond until a cell signal is available for a call. Which could save precious time and maybe a life. I am aware that the coordinates sent out by the Spot's are not always accurate, but it's better than nothing. I also carry signal mirror after reading Zach's recent epic TR.
Be experienced before trying the more extreme challenges and always be aware of your surroundings, read the terrain and climate and don't take anything for granted. We love this sport because of the risk factor and the excitement it offers. Do it well and hopefully you'll be able to do it for a long, long time.
I agree with Taco that being experienced with self-arrest is mandatory before climbing the bowl. It doesn't mean you'll be able to arrest your fall but at least you have a chance of saving your life.
Also, i personally have a Spot messenger and a 911 message can be sent via satellite immediately instead of having someone hike down the trail and into the village or beyond until a cell signal is available for a call. Which could save precious time and maybe a life. I am aware that the coordinates sent out by the Spot's are not always accurate, but it's better than nothing. I also carry signal mirror after reading Zach's recent epic TR.
Be experienced before trying the more extreme challenges and always be aware of your surroundings, read the terrain and climate and don't take anything for granted. We love this sport because of the risk factor and the excitement it offers. Do it well and hopefully you'll be able to do it for a long, long time.
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whatmeworry
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:28 pm
I agree that some the of the biggest factors in preparedness relate directly to your individual fitness, experience/training, familiarity with your gear, and an ability to assess objective/subjective hazards.
Our local mountains seem to catch people off guard - especially in the winter. I am always surprised by the # of people on Baldy in particular that are at the very edge of their comfort zone. These people are one misstep or weather change away from a potentially life threatening incident.
In looking at the various pictures of the rescue it appears that most of the responders on scene are either USFS firefighters or members of the Baldy FD. Equiped with only a backboard for a possible carryout, I'd concur that the crew in the pictures would not have been able to carry out a ground evac. West Valley SAR (and other teams from SB Co.) should have been on scene with a litter and wheel to facilitate a ground evac. Fit rescuers can get to the bowl very quickly from where the trail heads up off the road.
Helicopters are wonderful tools but are subject to weather, time of day, mechanical failures, and other issues. Counting on the helo to save the day may leave you disappointed. That being said, the crews on the local rescue 'copters (LA Co. Sheriff/Air-5 (helo in most of the pictures from the accident), LACoFD/Firehawks (sounds like they were able to complete the rescue), and SB Co.) are some of the most experienced helicopter rescue crews in the country.
SPOTs/PLBs and similar locator beacon devices are good tools and can certainly help get a response underway. One of the challenges is that they can't tell responders the nature of the incident. A medical emergency vs. a technical rescue may dictate a very different response. The phone call or runner down the trail is invaluable in giving rescuers a situation report.
I'm not a big fan of overdoing the emergency gear, but carrying some essentials that can help you (or someone else) survive an unplanned bivy are worth considering. Consider a wilderness first aid or similar course as well.
Our local mountains seem to catch people off guard - especially in the winter. I am always surprised by the # of people on Baldy in particular that are at the very edge of their comfort zone. These people are one misstep or weather change away from a potentially life threatening incident.
In looking at the various pictures of the rescue it appears that most of the responders on scene are either USFS firefighters or members of the Baldy FD. Equiped with only a backboard for a possible carryout, I'd concur that the crew in the pictures would not have been able to carry out a ground evac. West Valley SAR (and other teams from SB Co.) should have been on scene with a litter and wheel to facilitate a ground evac. Fit rescuers can get to the bowl very quickly from where the trail heads up off the road.
Helicopters are wonderful tools but are subject to weather, time of day, mechanical failures, and other issues. Counting on the helo to save the day may leave you disappointed. That being said, the crews on the local rescue 'copters (LA Co. Sheriff/Air-5 (helo in most of the pictures from the accident), LACoFD/Firehawks (sounds like they were able to complete the rescue), and SB Co.) are some of the most experienced helicopter rescue crews in the country.
SPOTs/PLBs and similar locator beacon devices are good tools and can certainly help get a response underway. One of the challenges is that they can't tell responders the nature of the incident. A medical emergency vs. a technical rescue may dictate a very different response. The phone call or runner down the trail is invaluable in giving rescuers a situation report.
I'm not a big fan of overdoing the emergency gear, but carrying some essentials that can help you (or someone else) survive an unplanned bivy are worth considering. Consider a wilderness first aid or similar course as well.
Seriously, most of them are taking a bigger risk during their drive to the trailhead (and especially the drive home).whatmeworry wrote:Our local mountains seem to catch people off guard - especially in the winter. I am always surprised by the # of people on Baldy in particular that are at the very edge of their comfort zone. These people are one misstep or weather change away from a potentially life threatening incident.
Nunc est bibendum
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blakemiller
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:36 pm
Good morning, it's Blake Miller here - and my first post on these forums. I haven't been a user (nor much of a lurker to these forums, till now) I was one of the last 3 in our group (from WPSMB) to stay behind and left the mountain at 8:30pm under headlamp. I also grabbed a few of those pictures from the day, and the later ones of the rescue. My pics are here http://bit.ly/8xJyan
This was my first trip up to Baldy, and FIRST experience in any type of rescue or 'situation' on a mountain. I've got a decent amount of Backpacking, hiking and trekking over my lifetime, but certainly don't match many of you "experts" 'round here. Sorry for the long post, but my recap . . .
It was great to have the experience and expertise of Sarah, Bob and others. Would different decisions have been made? Not sure, but I'm sure the 'fear' level would have been a bit higher without them and it surely would not have gone as smoothly as it did. But, we always had someone in charge, which was good, and there was no question that Sarah and Bob were. It was clear that Sarah had the experience and expertise, she was great! Bob had a 'calm wisdom' to provide oversight too. Once USFS arrived later on, their lead teamed up with Sara/Bob to take charge and it was a good fit.
From 12:30pm - 3pm we spent caring for Natalie. Assessing her condition, trying to get her to eat a little for some energy, taking fluids, etc. (Every time she tried to sit up, she'd get nauseous and dizzy and only last a minute or so) We were comforting her, etc. [I learned that comforting the patient is just as important as all of the external actions. It was obvious she was scared, and hurting and cold - I would have been too.]
The decision was made to get her down the mountain (as opposed to stabilized on the spot) because there was no shelter and no protection. We were watching the sun slowly approaching the ridge that would have put us in the shade and soon, dark. (The night before at Baldy ski resort was 16deg F) No bags, tents, etc. EVERYONE was only prepared for a day hike. We had already used every extra jacket, shirt, etc on hand and she was still cold and needing more shelter. The hut is extremely secure and we evaluated almost every method of "breaking in". Getting down was also reinforced by the fact that Natalie was lucid and conscious the whole time and while not wanting to go, knew she had to. Had she been in/out of consciousness or otherwise "worse" off, it may have been decided differently.
While caring from 1-3pm, another group of us made a home made litter out of poles, axes, some wood, tape, straps, etc. We departed "down" at 2:30-3pm with just us. There were about 6 or 7 of us, and we all helped/rotated through helping with the makeshift litter. It wasn't working well and at one point, natalie grabbed the strength to try to walk but difficult. Only made it a few hundred yards, at most.
At 3:15 (per my picture timestamps) the first helo attempt was made. Too windy.
Around 4:00pm, the 4 USFS personnel arrived (those first pictures were only a few hundred yards down the hut) We stopped again, and regrouped. They made their assessments and also agreed to continue down, as opposed to taking shelter somewhere up there. USFS was in touch with ground and with Helo, so our 'fears' were reduced at this point. (Not knowing even "if" help has been notified was a big issue, so once we saw them, it helped.)
Side Note: It was frustrating to learn that USFS (nor SAR we think) did NOT have a key / access to the Ski Hut. Since our goal was to get out of exposure, the hut was always our first thought, along with USFS wanting to get into the hut. They had some keys with them, and thought maybe one of them was the hut key, but turned out not to be.) I would figure that at least Mt. Baldy USFS crew should have a master key or combo lock for emergencies. It surely would have helped in our case.
So we got natalie onto the 'real' backboard and started down again at 4:30pm It was BACKBREAKING. whatmeworry and others who have eluded ... you're right, it was excruciatingly difficult! I personally was pretty fatigued and after an hour or two of going down, i was only able to "hang on" for a minute or two at that point. (Don't forget, our group had all been up since 4am, on the mountain since 6am and only prepared for a day hike. (we should have been off by 2pm) I was out of fluids and food and I was getting pretty spent at this time.) I believe it's true, that a ground evac on a simple backboard would have been extremely difficult if not impossible. But knowing the SAR wheeled litter was on it's way was the 2nd and better option to manpower alone.
We knew SAR was gearing up via USFS radios. Simply getting more manpower up there was our first concern at that point. (You can ask Sarah
) Still not sure why taking so long, it's been 3-4 hrs now) The first 2 SAR personnel arrived sometime around 5:00pm (I didn't get an exact time, nor any pictures with time stamps) We knew there was a 2nd team of 6 gearing up too. USFS radioed another HELO attempt as it appeared to be calming down wind-wise. I believe this 2nd helo attempt was also aborted due to winds.
With 2 more SAR on site, and more coming up, it was decided to stay put at that point and get a small shelter going, etc. More helo attempts were being planned which another came (these were my pictures towards the end of my gallery, in the dark.) I believe a 3rd helo attempt was made at some point, but failed due to a broken hoist. (This could have been the 2nd attempt, but my memory fails me at this late time in the day)
By about 7:30pm, Bob, Sarah and I realized we were secondary at this time and knew that it was time to depart. 2 more SAR arrived, more coming, and probably 10 total with USFS and them. We were pretty spent (again, now on the mtn for 13.5 hrs and little food/drink in the last 6) We were relieved off and headed down under some borrowed headlamps. (Another note to self, ALWAYS carry a headlamp, regardless of your 'plans')
Soon after our departure, another SAR team of about 4 or 5 were passed and they DID HAVE the one-wheeled litter with them. They were probably 15-20 minutes away. We continued down. Probably 8pm or so, we saw (what i believe) the 4th helo attempt flying in. (it could have been the 3rd, with the 4th soon after, again, i forget) We passed 2 more SAR towards the bottom. We got to bottom about 8:30pm and chatted with the head USFS chief. There were even more SAR at bottom preparing to go up (as needed i presume) There could have been 14-16 SAR people up there if all had been deployed.
The biggest piece of news that we 'heard' and later confirmed when we got down was that SAR was put only on standby around 2pm. (this was stated by a few of them as we asked/passed) It wasn't until later (Maybe 4pm'ish) that they were deployed up. Not sure why, and everyone we (actually Sara) asked simply said they didn't know either. There was definitely a misstep between USFS and SAR and San Bernadido Fire (HELO) service?? My guess is that possibly SAR was given word that USFS was being successful with HELO lifts (again, there were 3 attempts between 3:30 and 7pm) Not sure what policy is for SAR deployment, but possibly they thought the HELO and/or USFS was being successful in getting her down so were put on standby at first. Or should they "go" regardless of others' efforts? I dunno, but do know that they were put only on Standby for a few hours first.
I can't comment on other "preparedness" as I'm not sure what's required or expected by SAR. I was personally fatigued (granted up there for a long time and not much food/drink as of recent) I know USFS were kicking butt during the carrying and they were great. I can't comment on SAR since we didn't overlap our 'duties'.
I do know that everyone that was directly involved (Us, Natalie and her BF, USFS and the few SAR that we dealt with) were extremely helpful, resourceful, confident and ready to do whatever needed. From my viewpoint, it seemed like most of what we did/tried was the 'right' decision. I do feel that USFS and SAR need to get their ties better aligned. At the end of the day, I continue to applaud everyone involved and will always look at the mountain and my trips and USFS and SAR differently, and all in a good way
This was my first trip up to Baldy, and FIRST experience in any type of rescue or 'situation' on a mountain. I've got a decent amount of Backpacking, hiking and trekking over my lifetime, but certainly don't match many of you "experts" 'round here. Sorry for the long post, but my recap . . .
It was great to have the experience and expertise of Sarah, Bob and others. Would different decisions have been made? Not sure, but I'm sure the 'fear' level would have been a bit higher without them and it surely would not have gone as smoothly as it did. But, we always had someone in charge, which was good, and there was no question that Sarah and Bob were. It was clear that Sarah had the experience and expertise, she was great! Bob had a 'calm wisdom' to provide oversight too. Once USFS arrived later on, their lead teamed up with Sara/Bob to take charge and it was a good fit.
From 12:30pm - 3pm we spent caring for Natalie. Assessing her condition, trying to get her to eat a little for some energy, taking fluids, etc. (Every time she tried to sit up, she'd get nauseous and dizzy and only last a minute or so) We were comforting her, etc. [I learned that comforting the patient is just as important as all of the external actions. It was obvious she was scared, and hurting and cold - I would have been too.]
The decision was made to get her down the mountain (as opposed to stabilized on the spot) because there was no shelter and no protection. We were watching the sun slowly approaching the ridge that would have put us in the shade and soon, dark. (The night before at Baldy ski resort was 16deg F) No bags, tents, etc. EVERYONE was only prepared for a day hike. We had already used every extra jacket, shirt, etc on hand and she was still cold and needing more shelter. The hut is extremely secure and we evaluated almost every method of "breaking in". Getting down was also reinforced by the fact that Natalie was lucid and conscious the whole time and while not wanting to go, knew she had to. Had she been in/out of consciousness or otherwise "worse" off, it may have been decided differently.
While caring from 1-3pm, another group of us made a home made litter out of poles, axes, some wood, tape, straps, etc. We departed "down" at 2:30-3pm with just us. There were about 6 or 7 of us, and we all helped/rotated through helping with the makeshift litter. It wasn't working well and at one point, natalie grabbed the strength to try to walk but difficult. Only made it a few hundred yards, at most.
At 3:15 (per my picture timestamps) the first helo attempt was made. Too windy.
Around 4:00pm, the 4 USFS personnel arrived (those first pictures were only a few hundred yards down the hut) We stopped again, and regrouped. They made their assessments and also agreed to continue down, as opposed to taking shelter somewhere up there. USFS was in touch with ground and with Helo, so our 'fears' were reduced at this point. (Not knowing even "if" help has been notified was a big issue, so once we saw them, it helped.)
Side Note: It was frustrating to learn that USFS (nor SAR we think) did NOT have a key / access to the Ski Hut. Since our goal was to get out of exposure, the hut was always our first thought, along with USFS wanting to get into the hut. They had some keys with them, and thought maybe one of them was the hut key, but turned out not to be.) I would figure that at least Mt. Baldy USFS crew should have a master key or combo lock for emergencies. It surely would have helped in our case.
So we got natalie onto the 'real' backboard and started down again at 4:30pm It was BACKBREAKING. whatmeworry and others who have eluded ... you're right, it was excruciatingly difficult! I personally was pretty fatigued and after an hour or two of going down, i was only able to "hang on" for a minute or two at that point. (Don't forget, our group had all been up since 4am, on the mountain since 6am and only prepared for a day hike. (we should have been off by 2pm) I was out of fluids and food and I was getting pretty spent at this time.) I believe it's true, that a ground evac on a simple backboard would have been extremely difficult if not impossible. But knowing the SAR wheeled litter was on it's way was the 2nd and better option to manpower alone.
We knew SAR was gearing up via USFS radios. Simply getting more manpower up there was our first concern at that point. (You can ask Sarah
) Still not sure why taking so long, it's been 3-4 hrs now) The first 2 SAR personnel arrived sometime around 5:00pm (I didn't get an exact time, nor any pictures with time stamps) We knew there was a 2nd team of 6 gearing up too. USFS radioed another HELO attempt as it appeared to be calming down wind-wise. I believe this 2nd helo attempt was also aborted due to winds. With 2 more SAR on site, and more coming up, it was decided to stay put at that point and get a small shelter going, etc. More helo attempts were being planned which another came (these were my pictures towards the end of my gallery, in the dark.) I believe a 3rd helo attempt was made at some point, but failed due to a broken hoist. (This could have been the 2nd attempt, but my memory fails me at this late time in the day)
By about 7:30pm, Bob, Sarah and I realized we were secondary at this time and knew that it was time to depart. 2 more SAR arrived, more coming, and probably 10 total with USFS and them. We were pretty spent (again, now on the mtn for 13.5 hrs and little food/drink in the last 6) We were relieved off and headed down under some borrowed headlamps. (Another note to self, ALWAYS carry a headlamp, regardless of your 'plans')
Soon after our departure, another SAR team of about 4 or 5 were passed and they DID HAVE the one-wheeled litter with them. They were probably 15-20 minutes away. We continued down. Probably 8pm or so, we saw (what i believe) the 4th helo attempt flying in. (it could have been the 3rd, with the 4th soon after, again, i forget) We passed 2 more SAR towards the bottom. We got to bottom about 8:30pm and chatted with the head USFS chief. There were even more SAR at bottom preparing to go up (as needed i presume) There could have been 14-16 SAR people up there if all had been deployed.
The biggest piece of news that we 'heard' and later confirmed when we got down was that SAR was put only on standby around 2pm. (this was stated by a few of them as we asked/passed) It wasn't until later (Maybe 4pm'ish) that they were deployed up. Not sure why, and everyone we (actually Sara) asked simply said they didn't know either. There was definitely a misstep between USFS and SAR and San Bernadido Fire (HELO) service?? My guess is that possibly SAR was given word that USFS was being successful with HELO lifts (again, there were 3 attempts between 3:30 and 7pm) Not sure what policy is for SAR deployment, but possibly they thought the HELO and/or USFS was being successful in getting her down so were put on standby at first. Or should they "go" regardless of others' efforts? I dunno, but do know that they were put only on Standby for a few hours first.
I can't comment on other "preparedness" as I'm not sure what's required or expected by SAR. I was personally fatigued (granted up there for a long time and not much food/drink as of recent) I know USFS were kicking butt during the carrying and they were great. I can't comment on SAR since we didn't overlap our 'duties'.
I do know that everyone that was directly involved (Us, Natalie and her BF, USFS and the few SAR that we dealt with) were extremely helpful, resourceful, confident and ready to do whatever needed. From my viewpoint, it seemed like most of what we did/tried was the 'right' decision. I do feel that USFS and SAR need to get their ties better aligned. At the end of the day, I continue to applaud everyone involved and will always look at the mountain and my trips and USFS and SAR differently, and all in a good way
Blake,
Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed account. Since Sara and i were both going out of town in different directions we only spoke in brief conversations over the phone. Reading your account, puts it all in perspective. I apologize if my previous post was insensitive. It also brings up the issue of when multiple agencies are involved in a rescue how excellent management & communication in decision making is essential.
It was unfortunate that you all were up on that mountain for so long. The winds made the traditional rescue by helicopter nearly impossible. As i walked down the trail that afternoon knowing that a ground rescue might need to be made i thought how in the world are they going to carry Natalie over this? Even a wheeled litter would be difficult to maneuver on large portions of that trail.
So i sit here grateful that Natalie's injuries were not severe or there would have been a whole other outcome. I am also grateful that Sara and Bob were on that hike and their experience, knowledge and cool heads staged and started what turned out to be a successful rescue. I also told every responder that i passed the status of the patient (as relayed to me by Sara) so when they heard she had abdominal pain and abrasions in that region from the fall they would realize they might be dealing with internal injuries and time was of the essence. I was very fearful of that knowing she had tumbled 1000 feet.
I will always be grateful for SAR, law enforcement and firefighters who do their best to facilitate a successful rescue. I was their patient once. I can't thank enough all the hikers especially you, Sara and Bob who stopped what you were doing to help this young woman. I have come away from this with more knowledge, a deeper appreciation for the human spirit and a gratefulness for anyone who puts the needs of others ahead of themselves. Life is so very fragile, that's why I enjoy it so much. I realize that any day can be my last.
Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed account. Since Sara and i were both going out of town in different directions we only spoke in brief conversations over the phone. Reading your account, puts it all in perspective. I apologize if my previous post was insensitive. It also brings up the issue of when multiple agencies are involved in a rescue how excellent management & communication in decision making is essential.
It was unfortunate that you all were up on that mountain for so long. The winds made the traditional rescue by helicopter nearly impossible. As i walked down the trail that afternoon knowing that a ground rescue might need to be made i thought how in the world are they going to carry Natalie over this? Even a wheeled litter would be difficult to maneuver on large portions of that trail.
So i sit here grateful that Natalie's injuries were not severe or there would have been a whole other outcome. I am also grateful that Sara and Bob were on that hike and their experience, knowledge and cool heads staged and started what turned out to be a successful rescue. I also told every responder that i passed the status of the patient (as relayed to me by Sara) so when they heard she had abdominal pain and abrasions in that region from the fall they would realize they might be dealing with internal injuries and time was of the essence. I was very fearful of that knowing she had tumbled 1000 feet.
I will always be grateful for SAR, law enforcement and firefighters who do their best to facilitate a successful rescue. I was their patient once. I can't thank enough all the hikers especially you, Sara and Bob who stopped what you were doing to help this young woman. I have come away from this with more knowledge, a deeper appreciation for the human spirit and a gratefulness for anyone who puts the needs of others ahead of themselves. Life is so very fragile, that's why I enjoy it so much. I realize that any day can be my last.
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whatmeworry
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:28 pm
Thank you Blake for your detailed post. Your experience in this incident is very valuable - particularly from a SAR coordination standpoint.
Anytime you are dealing with multiple agencies things can get complicated very quickly. As Norma noted, skilled incident management is crucial. Hopefully the various agencies involved are reviewing what worked and what didn't as well.
In general, ground-based rescuers will be making their way toward the accident site until it is confirmed that the victim is in the helicopter and it is enroute to the hospital (or wherever). At that point you can shut down the ground response, but the operation is not concluded until everyone is safely out of the field.
Every minute spent moving resources towards the accident site are minutes that ensure help is getting closer to the victim. Mountain rescue incidents almost always involve substantial response times as compared to a typical urban emergency response.
Remember, taking care of yourself becomes a key part of an effective rescue as well! If you are cold, dehydrated, etc. you are not doing the victim any good and may become another casualty.
Others may disagree but you may want to consider a minimal set of additional gear for winter ascents of Baldy/San G./San J./BP/etc. A bivy sack (or equiv.) and a small stove (JetBoil or ?) along with some extra clothing are probably worth considering
I'll reiterate my praise to those that came to Natalie's aid. You absolutely made a difference and should be justifiably proud of your efforts.
I'd encourage anyone interested in expanding your skill set in this area to, "Just Do It". Are you really interested? Check out a local SAR team in your area. PM me and I'd be happy to talk to you more or help get you in touch with a team in your area.
Anytime you are dealing with multiple agencies things can get complicated very quickly. As Norma noted, skilled incident management is crucial. Hopefully the various agencies involved are reviewing what worked and what didn't as well.
In general, ground-based rescuers will be making their way toward the accident site until it is confirmed that the victim is in the helicopter and it is enroute to the hospital (or wherever). At that point you can shut down the ground response, but the operation is not concluded until everyone is safely out of the field.
Every minute spent moving resources towards the accident site are minutes that ensure help is getting closer to the victim. Mountain rescue incidents almost always involve substantial response times as compared to a typical urban emergency response.
Remember, taking care of yourself becomes a key part of an effective rescue as well! If you are cold, dehydrated, etc. you are not doing the victim any good and may become another casualty.
Others may disagree but you may want to consider a minimal set of additional gear for winter ascents of Baldy/San G./San J./BP/etc. A bivy sack (or equiv.) and a small stove (JetBoil or ?) along with some extra clothing are probably worth considering
I'll reiterate my praise to those that came to Natalie's aid. You absolutely made a difference and should be justifiably proud of your efforts.
I'd encourage anyone interested in expanding your skill set in this area to, "Just Do It". Are you really interested? Check out a local SAR team in your area. PM me and I'd be happy to talk to you more or help get you in touch with a team in your area.
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blakemiller
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:36 pm
Thanks Norma! FWIW I didn't find your post insensitive, hope my response didn't imply that. I was just trying to make a detailed review of how I saw things and commented back to some of original poster's questions. BTW, nice to meet you for the first time and had a great hike with ya! 
I know that Sarah (and others, i think) were getting anxious as to how long it was taking for help to arrive. Though, I personally didn't have any expectations being my first scenario.
I was more than willing and happy to stay as long as needed and I know Bob, Sarah and I even contemplated leaving when we did. We all continued to feel an obligation / desire to stay longer. But it made sense to leave when we did and as whatmeworry noted, there comes a time when the rescuers watch out for their own safety too.
@whatmeworry - Thanks for your confirmation. It was truly a learning experience. Also great to see all of the camaraderie and human spirit shine through.
My question regarding when SAR comes up stems from the fact that they all stated that they were only on Standby for a few hours before actually heading up. I assumed that they were done so because USFS was on scene rather quickly and radioing down that we were soon in transit back down in addition to the multiple helo attempts. ?? Dunno, just my assumption.
Anyhoo . . . all is good, and all is safe. Glad to be a part of such great groups!
I know that Sarah (and others, i think) were getting anxious as to how long it was taking for help to arrive. Though, I personally didn't have any expectations being my first scenario.
I was more than willing and happy to stay as long as needed and I know Bob, Sarah and I even contemplated leaving when we did. We all continued to feel an obligation / desire to stay longer. But it made sense to leave when we did and as whatmeworry noted, there comes a time when the rescuers watch out for their own safety too.
@whatmeworry - Thanks for your confirmation. It was truly a learning experience. Also great to see all of the camaraderie and human spirit shine through.
My question regarding when SAR comes up stems from the fact that they all stated that they were only on Standby for a few hours before actually heading up. I assumed that they were done so because USFS was on scene rather quickly and radioing down that we were soon in transit back down in addition to the multiple helo attempts. ?? Dunno, just my assumption.
Anyhoo . . . all is good, and all is safe. Glad to be a part of such great groups!
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whatmeworry
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:28 pm
I don't know the specifics associated with how the call came out and how the response was managed by the incident commander so forgive the generalities in my reply. No criticism or commentary on this rescue is meant nor should be implied.blakemiller wrote:... My question regarding when SAR comes up stems from the fact that they all stated that they were only on Standby for a few hours before actually heading up. I assumed that they were done so because USFS was on scene rather quickly and radioing down that we were soon in transit back down in addition to the multiple helo attempts. ?? Dunno, just my assumption.
Anyhoo . . . all is good, and all is safe. Glad to be a part of such great groups!
The very nature of SAR responses means you are almost always facing extended time to reach a victim. You also almost always need to carry all the gear you'll need. Sending everyone into the field without some details on the nature of the incident and the issues you may need to deal with could leave you in a position of not having something you need. Going back to a truck to get some needed piece of gear is a huge problem.
The initial response is usually a "bash" crew of fast rescuers carrying minimal gear (think light & fast) usually medical equipment and technical gear to secure the situation until more resources arrive. Litters, additional tech gear and more personnel can follow. Additional rescuers may be held back until a more thorough assessment is made by on-scene rescuers re: additional equipment and manpower needs.
Until the rescuee is safely enroute to definitive medical care the response should continue. Finding yourself trying to develop a Plan B after Plan A doesn't pan out (e.g., weather prevents helo extraction) is not where an incident commander wants to find themselves.
Many factors all need to be considered in a dynamic situation where information may be limited or conflicting.
I've been thinking about this for a few days and the lesson learned for me is I probably don't carry enough crap on winter day climbs, even though I know I already carry a lot more crap than most people. I was thinking about what I would need if I encountered an accident victim on the mountain, and it's a lot more than I currently carry.
Generally, for a Baldy day climb, I work with a confident assumption that I will not be spending the night, though traditionally I have always packed to be prepared for an overnight stay. But after further consideration this week it occurred to me the only concession I make to the possibility of an overnight, at least with my Baldy day climbs, is I bring a pile jacket that I have never yet had to deploy during the day (plus my usual essentials, including headlamp, etc). That's just not enough in the winter.
For example, what if I had to accompany a hurt climber while we waited for rescuers? As treatment for shock, I would probably have to give him all my warm clothing and gear, leaving me with little for myself, and that could become a real problem for me as the sun went down.
Last week I went up to the ski hut and in addition to my normal gear (I expected to go to the top) I carried a stove and cook kit to make some pancakes, plus some dogfood for my dog. I could barely zip my 24 liter day pack closed. Now I am thinking maybe a stove and cook kit should be standard equipment for a winter day climb, and even a Jetboil takes some pack space (I don't have any room on the outside of my day pack, since that's where I attach my crampons, shell jacket and "ass protector" - half a Thermarest Z-Lite pad that can also be used as a splint or for emergency bivouac). And there's other stuff I may want to have.
Here is what I normally carry in my 24 liter pack for winter ascents of Baldy (I will be wearing a long sleeve microwool under shirt, Pendleton wool overshirt, thin long johns, thin zip-off pants or snow shell pants, hat or helmet):
o Mountain Hardwear Monkey jacket
o Shell jacket
o Thicker long johns
o Cold weather accessories including heavy gloves, glove liners, balaclava and pile cap
o "Essentials" bag including compass, lighter, headlamp, etc.
o Food
o First aid kit (that really needs to be updated and resupplied)
o Poncho (mostly for sitting on)
o Alpine harness (generally just to attach the ice axe leash, but in future I will probably need it anyway to practice snow travel techniques)
o Three liters of water minimum
On the outside of the pack:
o Crampons
o Ice axe
o "Ass protector" pad
o Helmet (depending on route)
Now I have been thinking that maybe I need to add the following to my normal (non-technical) winter climbing gear:
o Lightweight, compressible summer or three-season down sleeping bag
o Bivy sack
o Emergency "space blanket" bivy sack
o Upgraded first aid kit
o Down jacket (I bought one last year for my Rainier climb, but never needed it; it would be hella useful during an overnight bivouac)
o Stove and cook kit
o Ice screws and/or other protection gear
o Rope
That's a lot more crap and no way will it all fit in my current pack. It will also probably double the pack weight, though that doesn't bother me too much.
I like to consider myself a careful person, and I can't get away from the Boy Scout ethic of "Be Prepared." I was stunned last year when Fritz and I were at the Camp Muir shelter on Rainier and saw that everyone who summited the day before us left their sleeping bags behind during the final ascent. I think Fritz and I were the only ones climbing out of Camp Muir who brought our sleeping bags. We also brought a stove and half-pads. Our summit packs were not that much lighter than when we first climbed to Camp Muir, but given the notoriously unpredictable weather on that mountain, it only seemed sensible to us.
What does the SGMDF brain trust think of my proposals?
Generally, for a Baldy day climb, I work with a confident assumption that I will not be spending the night, though traditionally I have always packed to be prepared for an overnight stay. But after further consideration this week it occurred to me the only concession I make to the possibility of an overnight, at least with my Baldy day climbs, is I bring a pile jacket that I have never yet had to deploy during the day (plus my usual essentials, including headlamp, etc). That's just not enough in the winter.
For example, what if I had to accompany a hurt climber while we waited for rescuers? As treatment for shock, I would probably have to give him all my warm clothing and gear, leaving me with little for myself, and that could become a real problem for me as the sun went down.
Last week I went up to the ski hut and in addition to my normal gear (I expected to go to the top) I carried a stove and cook kit to make some pancakes, plus some dogfood for my dog. I could barely zip my 24 liter day pack closed. Now I am thinking maybe a stove and cook kit should be standard equipment for a winter day climb, and even a Jetboil takes some pack space (I don't have any room on the outside of my day pack, since that's where I attach my crampons, shell jacket and "ass protector" - half a Thermarest Z-Lite pad that can also be used as a splint or for emergency bivouac). And there's other stuff I may want to have.
Here is what I normally carry in my 24 liter pack for winter ascents of Baldy (I will be wearing a long sleeve microwool under shirt, Pendleton wool overshirt, thin long johns, thin zip-off pants or snow shell pants, hat or helmet):
o Mountain Hardwear Monkey jacket
o Shell jacket
o Thicker long johns
o Cold weather accessories including heavy gloves, glove liners, balaclava and pile cap
o "Essentials" bag including compass, lighter, headlamp, etc.
o Food
o First aid kit (that really needs to be updated and resupplied)
o Poncho (mostly for sitting on)
o Alpine harness (generally just to attach the ice axe leash, but in future I will probably need it anyway to practice snow travel techniques)
o Three liters of water minimum
On the outside of the pack:
o Crampons
o Ice axe
o "Ass protector" pad
o Helmet (depending on route)
Now I have been thinking that maybe I need to add the following to my normal (non-technical) winter climbing gear:
o Lightweight, compressible summer or three-season down sleeping bag
o Bivy sack
o Emergency "space blanket" bivy sack
o Upgraded first aid kit
o Down jacket (I bought one last year for my Rainier climb, but never needed it; it would be hella useful during an overnight bivouac)
o Stove and cook kit
o Ice screws and/or other protection gear
o Rope
That's a lot more crap and no way will it all fit in my current pack. It will also probably double the pack weight, though that doesn't bother me too much.
I like to consider myself a careful person, and I can't get away from the Boy Scout ethic of "Be Prepared." I was stunned last year when Fritz and I were at the Camp Muir shelter on Rainier and saw that everyone who summited the day before us left their sleeping bags behind during the final ascent. I think Fritz and I were the only ones climbing out of Camp Muir who brought our sleeping bags. We also brought a stove and half-pads. Our summit packs were not that much lighter than when we first climbed to Camp Muir, but given the notoriously unpredictable weather on that mountain, it only seemed sensible to us.
What does the SGMDF brain trust think of my proposals?
Nunc est bibendum
To me it's about being self sufficient.
As it is, I always carry a DAS parka, fleece underpants, extra fleece jacket, gloves, balaclava and cortex shell anyway but from my last overnight experience in low 30s - high 20s I know that it's not enough to stay warm overnight especially if you haven't had a warm drink or food in a while. You really need to be fully sheltered from the exposure. Add to this a possibility of high wind and blowing snow and things can get pretty nasty very fast.
I think I am going to get a bivy and carry a 40 degree sleeping bag with me from now on.
I also carry two Sam Splints, tape, first aid kit and a spool of 500# paracord.
I have Alpine bod harness and a glacier-travel 30m 8mm rope which I haven't taken with me yet but might ... especially if I bring my GF along.
On the other hand there's an old joke: "bivouac" is a French word for "mistake" ...
As it is, I always carry a DAS parka, fleece underpants, extra fleece jacket, gloves, balaclava and cortex shell anyway but from my last overnight experience in low 30s - high 20s I know that it's not enough to stay warm overnight especially if you haven't had a warm drink or food in a while. You really need to be fully sheltered from the exposure. Add to this a possibility of high wind and blowing snow and things can get pretty nasty very fast.
I think I am going to get a bivy and carry a 40 degree sleeping bag with me from now on.
I also carry two Sam Splints, tape, first aid kit and a spool of 500# paracord.
I have Alpine bod harness and a glacier-travel 30m 8mm rope which I haven't taken with me yet but might ... especially if I bring my GF along.
On the other hand there's an old joke: "bivouac" is a French word for "mistake" ...
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michaelmagno
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:11 pm
Don't overlook a package or two of hand and/or foot warmers. Crack one open and tuck it under your hat...mmmm, ten hours of toasty. Okay, maybe not quite toasty, but it will at least take a bit of the edge off of a frigid bivy.
I find this video extremely helpful for getting a general idea of minimalist approach to climbing alpine style:
(it's Steve House about the gear Vince Anderson and him used for Nanga Parbat).
Here's another video of the clothing system he used on Nanga Parbat and while this is heavy on Patagonia it's still a very good overview of how the layering worked for him:
Keep in mind that in the first video about gear -- Steve and Vince shared the load of that ... I know from reading Steve's book that when he soloed K7 in 2004 he didn't bring a tent but used a bivy instead, he also said that he only had enough clothing with him to sustain a moderate weather -- if it turned for the worse he'd have to bail (rap off the face) and in fact he did on one of the attempts on K7 ...
To me it's all about being self sufficient and fully relying on your OWN experience/gear/clothing -- pushing it one step at a time further ... What works for one will not for the other -- that's for sure.
I always liked this saying -- "The only difference between a professional and an amateur is that the pro will test stuff before fully relying on it."
(it's Steve House about the gear Vince Anderson and him used for Nanga Parbat).
Here's another video of the clothing system he used on Nanga Parbat and while this is heavy on Patagonia it's still a very good overview of how the layering worked for him:
Keep in mind that in the first video about gear -- Steve and Vince shared the load of that ... I know from reading Steve's book that when he soloed K7 in 2004 he didn't bring a tent but used a bivy instead, he also said that he only had enough clothing with him to sustain a moderate weather -- if it turned for the worse he'd have to bail (rap off the face) and in fact he did on one of the attempts on K7 ...
To me it's all about being self sufficient and fully relying on your OWN experience/gear/clothing -- pushing it one step at a time further ... What works for one will not for the other -- that's for sure.
I always liked this saying -- "The only difference between a professional and an amateur is that the pro will test stuff before fully relying on it."
I'm definitely no expert and have been doing this for not too long, but here are my two cents.
I carry a somewhat minimal amount of gear, mainly because I slow down a lot with a heavy pack. I'm not a big guy so a heavy pack can be a big percentage of my body weight. I believe speed and agility can make you safer on alpine routes.
I carry basic survival equipment in a small dedicated silnylon sack. I think a lot of people hear the 10 essentials and they imagine 10 lbs worth of stuff. My go-to sack only weighs 20 oz and even includes a PLB. You can get the basic survival and signaling equipment in a 4 oz pocket survival kit from AMK/Doug Ritter.
The sack:
Inside is the group of items on the right:
I also bring a GPS, headlamp and a knife. The GPS is loaded with topo data for the entire state. This is a backup to the paper maps. It might seem overkill but I like backups and layers of redundancy (this had been drilled into my head working in the aerospace industry). I have multiple ways to navigate, multiple ways to signal to SAR and multiple ways to make fire and warm up the bacon.
I have First Aid/CPR training, but I think all I can really do is stop major bleeding, dress wounds and make a splint. So I just carry medical tape, sterile wipes, painkillers and bandages for now. I need to add gauze, roller bandages and sterile gloves in case I need to help someone. If you've taken the blood-borne pathogens class, you know what I mean.
To survive a bivy, I carry mini 7 hr chemical hand warmers, a Black Diamond Winter Bivy and an AMK Thermo-Lite 2.0 Bivvy sack. All together this weighs about a pound. But I haven't tested this combination in actual conditions yet so YMMV. Some people say the Winter Bivy is not breathable and an Integral Design South Col is better. I dunno, but the WB only weighs 11 oz. I also have a silk sleeping bag liner that I might try. My goal is to just survive the night without losing any digits if I'm delayed or until SAR gets there. I read a lot of SAR missions and what's common is you have to be prepared to sit for a long time before they get you out. I guess it's just the nature of the operation.
I carry a somewhat minimal amount of gear, mainly because I slow down a lot with a heavy pack. I'm not a big guy so a heavy pack can be a big percentage of my body weight. I believe speed and agility can make you safer on alpine routes.
I carry basic survival equipment in a small dedicated silnylon sack. I think a lot of people hear the 10 essentials and they imagine 10 lbs worth of stuff. My go-to sack only weighs 20 oz and even includes a PLB. You can get the basic survival and signaling equipment in a 4 oz pocket survival kit from AMK/Doug Ritter.
The sack:
Inside is the group of items on the right:
I also bring a GPS, headlamp and a knife. The GPS is loaded with topo data for the entire state. This is a backup to the paper maps. It might seem overkill but I like backups and layers of redundancy (this had been drilled into my head working in the aerospace industry). I have multiple ways to navigate, multiple ways to signal to SAR and multiple ways to make fire and warm up the bacon.
I have First Aid/CPR training, but I think all I can really do is stop major bleeding, dress wounds and make a splint. So I just carry medical tape, sterile wipes, painkillers and bandages for now. I need to add gauze, roller bandages and sterile gloves in case I need to help someone. If you've taken the blood-borne pathogens class, you know what I mean.
To survive a bivy, I carry mini 7 hr chemical hand warmers, a Black Diamond Winter Bivy and an AMK Thermo-Lite 2.0 Bivvy sack. All together this weighs about a pound. But I haven't tested this combination in actual conditions yet so YMMV. Some people say the Winter Bivy is not breathable and an Integral Design South Col is better. I dunno, but the WB only weighs 11 oz. I also have a silk sleeping bag liner that I might try. My goal is to just survive the night without losing any digits if I'm delayed or until SAR gets there. I read a lot of SAR missions and what's common is you have to be prepared to sit for a long time before they get you out. I guess it's just the nature of the operation.
i have had to bivy so i carry a decent emergency medical kit plus matches, lighter, bivy sack, hand & body warmers, knife, signal mirror, compass and fire starter. had i not had the fire starter on that bivy, i might have suffered frostbite. we were in snow and my boots & socks were wet. (i now make sure my boots are waterproof if hiking in snow and always carry an extra pair of socks.) my fire starter is 3 cotton balls covered with petroleum jelly stored in a snack size zip-lok bag. as Dave G called it "poor man's napalm." we did use the fire starter and that fire made the bivy tolerable. we left-no-trace of the fire in the morning.
i wear and bring layers of clothing that will keep me comfortable on the hike, when glissading or should it rain/snow or if i have to bivy. gone is the fleece! i now have a Montbell down ultralight jacket. it keeps me toasty under my precip jacket, weighs nothing and can be stuffed into the smallest cranny of my pack
i wear and bring layers of clothing that will keep me comfortable on the hike, when glissading or should it rain/snow or if i have to bivy. gone is the fleece! i now have a Montbell down ultralight jacket. it keeps me toasty under my precip jacket, weighs nothing and can be stuffed into the smallest cranny of my pack
I carry one of these year-round. It serves as an emergency bivy bag and sleeping bag: http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/5034
Mine's the bright orange. I figure that if I need it then I'm in trouble and need to be found. I believe it was developed by (for?) the British military, and is now often sold by EMT supply houses as well as some sporting goods outlets.
One item I rarely see carried in the West, but is nearly always carried by hikers in northern New England, is a closed cell foam pad of some flavor. Makes a huge difference in preventing/delaying hypothermia/shock, especially in cold weather.
Mine's the bright orange. I figure that if I need it then I'm in trouble and need to be found. I believe it was developed by (for?) the British military, and is now often sold by EMT supply houses as well as some sporting goods outlets.
One item I rarely see carried in the West, but is nearly always carried by hikers in northern New England, is a closed cell foam pad of some flavor. Makes a huge difference in preventing/delaying hypothermia/shock, especially in cold weather.