https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2 ... or-racists
Burnham and Baden-Powell do both seem like nasty racists, and Burnham a particularly scary one.
History professor proposes renaming peaks in the San Gabriels
This is just the tip of the iceberg, almost all of the white men which the majority of the peaks are named after are going down. Muir is already in trouble and I'm sure with some digging we will find the unseemly past of the others especially pre-1950 as many of those viewpoints that are unacceptable were par for the course in those days.
@David R -- I don't think it's valid just to lump everyone together like this. Based on the article, Burnham seems like a really hardcore white supremacist who went around doing awful, violent military stuff. Baden-Powell and Muir seem more like they fall below the threshold for censure, when you take into account the times in which they lived. It's certainly not true that all white men were racist before 1950. Two random examples would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Schwarz and my grandfather, Russell Crowell. Even in ancient times, there were people like Jesus who rejected the ethno-nationalism in which they were raised. (See the parable of the good Samaritan.)
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
George Orwell 1984
George Orwell 1984
I figure if we dig deep enough - for some folks it isn't real deep - we can find something wrong with most people throughout history. Even Abraham Lincoln wanted to move an entire race of people out of the country and I don't (yet) hear about him being a bad guy.
"Argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours".
Donald Shimoda
Donald Shimoda
It's important to keep in mind what a monument honors and what it does not honor. Mounts Burnham and Baden-Powell do not honor the men for their views on race, they honor the men for being scouting leaders and explorers. Below are the decision cards from the USGS naming committee.
Some people seem to equate a monument with the honoring of a man's entire life and ideology, flaws and all. This makes no sense to me. People are multifaceted beings with many interests and concerns. It would be wrong to interpret a monument as representing all of them, particularly the bad ones, unless it was explicitly dedicated as such.
On the other hand, an honored person's flaws should be considered within the context of history and the intellectual development of man. But I don't see much of that being done in the article cited here. Even the example of branding a slave seems cherry-picked and suspiciously lacking details. If I actually cared about preserving the name Burnham, I'd check the record on that point.
But let's suppose Burnham was a major brute. Okay, what do you want to call the mountain? The article smells mostly like a nihilistic attack rather than a genuine offer of a better name. Burnham has history and use behind it, despite whatever alleged flaws of the man himself. If you want to erase his name from the mountain, at least present an alternative worthy of consideration, and let's see how that name stands up to equal critical scrutiny.
Some people seem to equate a monument with the honoring of a man's entire life and ideology, flaws and all. This makes no sense to me. People are multifaceted beings with many interests and concerns. It would be wrong to interpret a monument as representing all of them, particularly the bad ones, unless it was explicitly dedicated as such.
On the other hand, an honored person's flaws should be considered within the context of history and the intellectual development of man. But I don't see much of that being done in the article cited here. Even the example of branding a slave seems cherry-picked and suspiciously lacking details. If I actually cared about preserving the name Burnham, I'd check the record on that point.
But let's suppose Burnham was a major brute. Okay, what do you want to call the mountain? The article smells mostly like a nihilistic attack rather than a genuine offer of a better name. Burnham has history and use behind it, despite whatever alleged flaws of the man himself. If you want to erase his name from the mountain, at least present an alternative worthy of consideration, and let's see how that name stands up to equal critical scrutiny.
I can't read the article cause I don't subscribe to them, and have an adblocker on. I don't care for the LA Times, so I'm not going to turn it off for the article.
You know, I wrote a response to this, deleted it, redid it, and deleted that. I can talk forever on the subject, but since I haven't read the article, I'd probably be off. I'm mostly hoping I am not reincarnated as a human so I don't have to suffer their idiocy any longer, and can maybe be a Raven or a Fungus or something like that.
Some points in my mind:
-I am generally for having terrain features named by the first people who named em. Maybe a Tongva name or something, I dunno. I think Denali is better than Mount McKinley, but I admittedly don't know the real history behind it much, or much about McKinley. I don't know my presidents well.
-When did it become acceptable to judge people of the past on today's norms? Have you seen how much different life is now? I mean, just having the fucking internet is huge. Nobody is perfect, and I bet you my life you could find any human or animal to be racist if you ask the right questions. Except the dead ones, they can't talk.
-Like Sean said, what are some suggestions for new names? Is this like kids who can't fight or grow crops/have any useful skills who wanna tear down capitalism or whatever and then replace it with nothing? Did the author suggest naming it after someone who wasn't bad or whatever?
-I grew up here in LA County. I've worked all over for all kinds of people. Going after 'white people' as being super bad special racists is fucking retarded. I've had black people scream racist shit at me and my coworkers, calling my buddy Carlos fucked up shit cause he's Mexican. Just had a black dude trump supporter talk shit on my other homie (who is also Mexican) as my dude was getting out of work. Nope, can't say that. He's not white. It's trendy to ignore logic and point out fucked up shit if someone isn't white. My buddy who is first generation Korean had a black dude stick a shotgun in his face during the riots in 92. Nobody says anything about Asians getting treated like shit. Yo, what about Japan invading China, Korea, the Far East before WWII and the shit they did? China and the Uyghurs? China and everyone? I mean seriously, nowadays I see people judging each other based on the color of their skin and assigning them untouchable status, and others are immediately discounted because of their skin color or whatever. It's absurd. Judge based on content of character. If someone is a piece of shit, they are regardless of their color or whatever. All I hear is saying how white people are bad and some guy is a white supremacist (the definition has certainly changed recently!), while they chant some black guy's name who honestly did some fucked up shit against innocent people. I see that as trying to fit in with a group of morons who are racist, but are so far up their own asses they can't find the doorknob they're sitting on. That's today. That's also a big part of the internet and the way media is transmitted and digested now as well, especially when people are isolated indoors and not out amongst each other seeing that for the very most part, people are good.
-Bruh, I'm still pissed about the last point!
-Recently Mountainproject was transferred to some guy's care. REI had it before, and I don't know who had it before REI but I was a member back then. The new guy has removed the names of routes him and his people deem 'offensive'. I had one of my names in there changed. It was a route by Crystal Lake called Ant Jemima. We called it that because there were a ton of ants on it, and it's a funny play on words. It's racist though, apparently. Maybe Aunt Jemima was a war criminal and also white or something, I don't know, I can't keep up with these people. You want to change what I've written to fit your weak minded internal dialogue? Who gave you permission to do that? And apparently I can't remove all my data I've put up on there over the years because it no longer belongs to me or something. That's fucked up and I disagree with it. It's another stupid extension of the feel-bad bullshit. Did the admin even give me the slightest respect in asking what the story was behind the name so he could see it's harmless and humorous? No. Why would he? He had something like 268 other route names to delete and list as 'Redacted', like he works for the CIA or some shit. See where I'm coming from? They even removed a route named MILF. Bruh... y'all are gonna have a real hard time coping with the shitty times ahead of us if you banned your sense of humor. Fuck it, easier for the rest of us then I guess.
-Does that guy get to rename my routes? Do I have any agency over my own creative shit or do I have to submit it to some govt office of shit I wanna use to express myself? Cause I'd get kicked out and sent to the dumbest, most inefficient prison ever. Fuck it, cheap rent, three hots and a cot.
I think Gene's post with the Orwell quote was dead on.
I have a hard time writing online anymore. I don't use social media anymore. Nobody can deny that things are designed in such a way to push frustrating shit in your face for 'engagement', and that you get pissed and feel worse than before you looked at your dumb expensive hand-computer, and some rich asshole is richer from those clicks on poorly written articles. I prefer to speak in person. I know I am not the norm, and that even people who know me decently well find me a bit mysterious and confusing at times, and that I am often misunderstood, which is very frustrating. I don't know how else to say that I think people in general are good, though we are still animals and each and every one of us normal people is capable of great violence and hate as well as deep love and compassion. Many choose to ignore the first part and pretend humans aren't animals, and are special. This is ignorant and apparent in much of what I see online. Regardless, I enjoy writing, I try to make people laugh, and I know sometimes my viewpoint isn't shared. I normally keep it to myself but sometimes you gotta say something so there is a discussion and an agreement on a solution can be found. Like, maybe better names, if that's what we want.
On a lighter note, are we gonna rename the Americas something else? Can I make racist Italian jokes? Italians are white now, right? I dunno, I'm a dirty slav. We can't afford fancy shoes. Maybe we can give it a really slick name and use words so many have just learned like indigenous. It'll be a little disneyland of sorts where we base things on good ideas and nice happy things instead of reality, and it's gonna work great and nobody will be hurt cause only the gov't will have power and weapons and free access to information in happy funland. I am excited for happy funland. Maybe we can ban hiking on Baldy in the winter cause it gets sooooo slippery up there! Really selfish of you to go up there and maybe get hurt on slippery mountain. Speaking of which, Mount Baldy is pretty mean. I have baldness! That is rude! It's like calling it Fatass Mountain! Let's change it to something less 'problematic'. Also pretty sexist since it's mostly men who go bald. What about bringing attention to quadriplegic octo-racial marginalized zerosexual disabled-re-enabled people/s/x who suffer from reduced hair growth on a small region of their left arm? That's a big name but nobody ever said justice would come easy!
You know, I wrote a response to this, deleted it, redid it, and deleted that. I can talk forever on the subject, but since I haven't read the article, I'd probably be off. I'm mostly hoping I am not reincarnated as a human so I don't have to suffer their idiocy any longer, and can maybe be a Raven or a Fungus or something like that.
Some points in my mind:
-I am generally for having terrain features named by the first people who named em. Maybe a Tongva name or something, I dunno. I think Denali is better than Mount McKinley, but I admittedly don't know the real history behind it much, or much about McKinley. I don't know my presidents well.
-When did it become acceptable to judge people of the past on today's norms? Have you seen how much different life is now? I mean, just having the fucking internet is huge. Nobody is perfect, and I bet you my life you could find any human or animal to be racist if you ask the right questions. Except the dead ones, they can't talk.
-Like Sean said, what are some suggestions for new names? Is this like kids who can't fight or grow crops/have any useful skills who wanna tear down capitalism or whatever and then replace it with nothing? Did the author suggest naming it after someone who wasn't bad or whatever?
-I grew up here in LA County. I've worked all over for all kinds of people. Going after 'white people' as being super bad special racists is fucking retarded. I've had black people scream racist shit at me and my coworkers, calling my buddy Carlos fucked up shit cause he's Mexican. Just had a black dude trump supporter talk shit on my other homie (who is also Mexican) as my dude was getting out of work. Nope, can't say that. He's not white. It's trendy to ignore logic and point out fucked up shit if someone isn't white. My buddy who is first generation Korean had a black dude stick a shotgun in his face during the riots in 92. Nobody says anything about Asians getting treated like shit. Yo, what about Japan invading China, Korea, the Far East before WWII and the shit they did? China and the Uyghurs? China and everyone? I mean seriously, nowadays I see people judging each other based on the color of their skin and assigning them untouchable status, and others are immediately discounted because of their skin color or whatever. It's absurd. Judge based on content of character. If someone is a piece of shit, they are regardless of their color or whatever. All I hear is saying how white people are bad and some guy is a white supremacist (the definition has certainly changed recently!), while they chant some black guy's name who honestly did some fucked up shit against innocent people. I see that as trying to fit in with a group of morons who are racist, but are so far up their own asses they can't find the doorknob they're sitting on. That's today. That's also a big part of the internet and the way media is transmitted and digested now as well, especially when people are isolated indoors and not out amongst each other seeing that for the very most part, people are good.
-Bruh, I'm still pissed about the last point!
-Recently Mountainproject was transferred to some guy's care. REI had it before, and I don't know who had it before REI but I was a member back then. The new guy has removed the names of routes him and his people deem 'offensive'. I had one of my names in there changed. It was a route by Crystal Lake called Ant Jemima. We called it that because there were a ton of ants on it, and it's a funny play on words. It's racist though, apparently. Maybe Aunt Jemima was a war criminal and also white or something, I don't know, I can't keep up with these people. You want to change what I've written to fit your weak minded internal dialogue? Who gave you permission to do that? And apparently I can't remove all my data I've put up on there over the years because it no longer belongs to me or something. That's fucked up and I disagree with it. It's another stupid extension of the feel-bad bullshit. Did the admin even give me the slightest respect in asking what the story was behind the name so he could see it's harmless and humorous? No. Why would he? He had something like 268 other route names to delete and list as 'Redacted', like he works for the CIA or some shit. See where I'm coming from? They even removed a route named MILF. Bruh... y'all are gonna have a real hard time coping with the shitty times ahead of us if you banned your sense of humor. Fuck it, easier for the rest of us then I guess.
-Does that guy get to rename my routes? Do I have any agency over my own creative shit or do I have to submit it to some govt office of shit I wanna use to express myself? Cause I'd get kicked out and sent to the dumbest, most inefficient prison ever. Fuck it, cheap rent, three hots and a cot.
I think Gene's post with the Orwell quote was dead on.
I have a hard time writing online anymore. I don't use social media anymore. Nobody can deny that things are designed in such a way to push frustrating shit in your face for 'engagement', and that you get pissed and feel worse than before you looked at your dumb expensive hand-computer, and some rich asshole is richer from those clicks on poorly written articles. I prefer to speak in person. I know I am not the norm, and that even people who know me decently well find me a bit mysterious and confusing at times, and that I am often misunderstood, which is very frustrating. I don't know how else to say that I think people in general are good, though we are still animals and each and every one of us normal people is capable of great violence and hate as well as deep love and compassion. Many choose to ignore the first part and pretend humans aren't animals, and are special. This is ignorant and apparent in much of what I see online. Regardless, I enjoy writing, I try to make people laugh, and I know sometimes my viewpoint isn't shared. I normally keep it to myself but sometimes you gotta say something so there is a discussion and an agreement on a solution can be found. Like, maybe better names, if that's what we want.
On a lighter note, are we gonna rename the Americas something else? Can I make racist Italian jokes? Italians are white now, right? I dunno, I'm a dirty slav. We can't afford fancy shoes. Maybe we can give it a really slick name and use words so many have just learned like indigenous. It'll be a little disneyland of sorts where we base things on good ideas and nice happy things instead of reality, and it's gonna work great and nobody will be hurt cause only the gov't will have power and weapons and free access to information in happy funland. I am excited for happy funland. Maybe we can ban hiking on Baldy in the winter cause it gets sooooo slippery up there! Really selfish of you to go up there and maybe get hurt on slippery mountain. Speaking of which, Mount Baldy is pretty mean. I have baldness! That is rude! It's like calling it Fatass Mountain! Let's change it to something less 'problematic'. Also pretty sexist since it's mostly men who go bald. What about bringing attention to quadriplegic octo-racial marginalized zerosexual disabled-re-enabled people/s/x who suffer from reduced hair growth on a small region of their left arm? That's a big name but nobody ever said justice would come easy!
So what did John Muir do that made the righteous people come after him? Did he call natives lazy or something? I looked it up when I heard about it months ago and don't recall finding anything substantial. His contributions to the NPS and conservation in general are not to be understated, so he musta done something fucked up for people to dethrone him. I'd be the first person to not give a shit if he was gone since all I saw were his quotes being super cliche in Yosemite Valley everyday.
So who is our new John Muir? Who is the super awesome great person? Did your mom or dad say something fucked up once and now they're the worst? Do people like Obama cause he was the first half black president to drone strike people? I saw an Asian dude call a homeless guy a faggot the other day during a fight on Colorado Boulevard in Pasadena. Does he go to internet jail now?
So who is our new John Muir? Who is the super awesome great person? Did your mom or dad say something fucked up once and now they're the worst? Do people like Obama cause he was the first half black president to drone strike people? I saw an Asian dude call a homeless guy a faggot the other day during a fight on Colorado Boulevard in Pasadena. Does he go to internet jail now?
The author gave no suggestions. But I propose renaming it Mount Burnham Is Just Alright. I don't care what they may say, Burnham is just alright with me. And that's coming from someone who doesn't even believe in Burnham.
That's how Critical Race Theorists get under your skin. They go after some thing that you don't care about, then they use that as a precedent to go after all the other things that you do care about. It's basically a form of memetic warfare. Not that you've personally done this, but once people generally accept the premise that we should judge historical figures based on current understanding about race, then we've already surrendered a large majority of our historical figures to the cultural trashbin.
Probably some rebel slave who slaughtered his abusive owner and the owner's wife and children. Or maybe we can consult the great literature and scientific journals of some indigenous tribe for a name rooted in their history.So who is our new John Muir? Who is the super awesome great person?
Part of me hopes they get their way. I hope everything gets renamed. Part of me wants to see everything burn. I want to see people delete history and relive it, and see why people were the way they were. I see this with people wanting more and more govt. Give everything up, give your rights up and privacy in trade for ‘safety’ or whatever. Give it all away and ignore human nature so I can just watch you and your family cry and get your businesses taken away, your homes looted, your bodies dumped into trenches. Ignorance and hate turns into murdering ‘them’, whoever they might be. I angrily fantasize about the first amendment being erased so you face severe consequences for criticizing anyone, for saying anything deemed inappropriate. Eliminate the second amendment so you can’t say the final no to those who use evil. Eliminate all your rights so ‘the right ones’ can go anywhere and do anything, and you’ll just be cattle. Part of me really, really wants to see it all burn so for a split second I can feel validated in my thought that modern soft humans who’ve forgotten how we got here can truly realize what they’ve begged for, right before I end myself.Sean wrote: ↑That's how Critical Race Theorists get under your skin. They go after some thing that you don't care about, then they use that as a precedent to go after all the other things that you do care about. It's basically a form of memetic warfare. Not that you've personally done this, but once people generally accept the premise that we should judge historical figures based on current understanding about race, then we've already surrendered a large majority of our historical figures to the cultural trashbin.
I hope we ban white people from everything since they’re the only violent ones, and the only ones who colonize (cool buzzword), and bring them AND the patriarchy down! Yeah! Fuck em! This and toxic masculinity with no mention of toxic femininity, probably because those who could say that just deal with shit and move on positively instead of dying their hair purple and bitching online to other retards.
Please for the love of whatever gods there are, just run me over with a fucking truck already so I don’t have to witness humans ever again. Let me try being a stupid beetle or some shit so I can just dick around eating fungus and get eaten by a bird. At least then I won’t have to suffer through these absolutely insane human problems made by people who face no real adversity. Fuck it, maybe China will start a world war, we’ll have a draft, equality politics will come up and you’ll have purple haired girls as regular swinging dick infantry and they can see their equality of outcome bullshit as they hold their reddit girlfriend in their arms as she bleeds out from an IED blast. We can name the pass that unit gets smoked on ‘Tumblr I’m-not-racist Pass’, then give it up to the enemy as if the sacrifice was for nothing. Humanity is one long running joke and the punchline is that the more advanced we got, the dumber and weaker we got, so we just picked each other apart based on skin color and having or lacking a dick, all in the name of not being racist or sexist.
Let it all burn, I don’t give a shit.
Nah I do, that’s why I’m mad. I’d be liberated if I didn’t give a shit. This shit still pisses me off. Fuck it, I’ll keep my mouth mostly shut and pretend to toe the line until I dunno, I get hit by a truck or some shit.
For some reason, immediately after posting, Tapatalk shows you your quote reply directly underneath the referenced message. But if you refresh the site, your reply will be at the bottom of the thread like normal.
Isn't that the plot of the upcoming Saving Private Ryan remake? I hear they're changing it to an all-female cast and setting it in the future instead of the past. Really avant-garde filmmaking. Can't wait to see it.Taco wrote: ↑Fuck it, maybe China will start a world war, we’ll have a draft, equality politics will come up and you’ll have purple haired girls as regular swinging dick infantry and they can see their equality of outcome bullshit as they hold their reddit girlfriend in their arms as she bleeds out from an IED blast.
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Tom Kenney
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:51 pm
Geez, I sure hope these folks don't learn about Mt. Clarence King!